Maksym Hryshchuk: "They are advancing on corpses of their fighters, on remnants of previous assault groups, which are almost never taken away"
We met Maksym Hryshchuk before the full-scale phase of the war, when he was acting as the head of the Specialized Anti-Corruption Prosecutor’s Office. And when we spoke in the spring of 2022, he was already defending Kyiv from the enemy, serving as a grenade launcher platoon commander. Later, I learned that he went to fight in Kharkiv region, participated in the liberation of Kherson region, where he continues to defend our country, already commanding a fire support company of the 112th Territorial Defense Brigade.
Therefore, in the interview, we talked about how the enemy's tactics in this area have changed, how fpv drones have affected it, as well as about mobilization and related changes in legislation
"NO ONE GOES TO WAR TO DIE THERE"
- We recently recalled the tough months of defending Donetsk airport. No matter how many years have passed, it is impossible to forget. You were a direct participant in those events. Do you remember the days when you got there?
- How can you forget something like that? I still remember all those emotions, all the days, the hour-by-hour chronology, what I saw when I entered - I still remember it well. We were at the weather station, which is a few hundred meters from the runway and about 950 meters from the airport tower.
- At the beginning of the defense, did you understand how difficult and long it would be?
- Only now, looking back, can we give a more or less objective assessment of those events. At the time, you took everything for granted because it was happening to you offline, and you were reacting to those events live. It's the same as now when we can say that we live in a historical period. But we will be able to objectively assess it only later.
- If you compare the battles for the airport with what you had to go through at this stage of the war, where was it hardest?
- There are many similar situations now. In fact, those events at the airport, when there were some of the fiercest battles, showed the enemy that we would fight for our territory to the last. And now we can see similar situations and examples. The same Azovstal, the same Bakhmut, the same Krynky. The same situations are now on the eastern front, on the southern front, where we are fighting for our positions.
- Yes, but we have now lost Mariupol, Bakhmut, Marinka and many other cities that we fought for as desperately as the cyborgs (Ukrainian servicemen who participated in the defense of Donetsk International Airport during the war in eastern Ukraine - ed. note) for the airport.
- We also withdrew from the Donetsk airport at that time. We had to be guided by the rational principle of preserving the personnel and combat capability of the unit. I think we can look at it from the point of view that we are preserving our forces to continue the fight. So that we can counterattack.
In my opinion, we need a global approach to combat operations. We need to look at what the goal is and what we can achieve with the resources we have. If we can exhaust the enemy, deplete him, reduce his offensive resources, then we should do so. If at the same time, we are accumulating resources somewhere else, we should do it.
I believe that we use our resources rationally, so these actions - the heroic defense of all those settlements that you mentioned - are, in my opinion, appropriate.
- Did you feel any hopelessness or doom when you were in the Donetsk airport?
- No. A person is a creature who always clings to life, looking for opportunities to get out of a situation, so there are no utopian ideas or views. Everyone went intending to defeat the enemy and return home. No one goes to war to die.
- Those who are afraid of mobilization, on the contrary, believe that a draft notice is a one-way ticket. What would you say to such people?
- Limitations, as they say, are in the head. Why am I depressed? Because I have limitations in my head. Why am I drowning in the Tisza River? Because I am afraid that I will be drafted into the army. The army is not a place of punishment. That's why it's wrong when they say that everyone who is bad is sent to the front. And the army is not a place where you will definitely die. What is a shelled soldier and what is a non-shelled soldier? Our people even have a saying: one that's been caned is worth two that haven't. Therefore, if you have training, some kind of preparation, and an understanding of how these processes work, your success in battle has a chance to increase many times over.
Why should the enemy be eliminated in the first battle? Because otherwise he will gain invaluable experience and will be much more dangerous in the second battle. Likewise, a warrior who has undergone training, having a certain understanding and modeling of his actions and his situation, will acquire the skills that will help him survive.
Of course, there is always a chance involved. And no one is immune from it. But if everything is done rationally and with calculations, it is no more of a risk than going to the mountains, skiing, or simply crossing the road where you can be hit by a car.
Of course, at the front, the chance of an accident increases. But there are always means, training, and exercises, so if you do everything right, this risk can be minimized as much as possible.
- In February-March 2022, people were queuing up at military recruitment offices to join the army. Now those who have not yet been mobilized are caught with the police. I heard in an interview with one of the lawyers, who also left at the beginning of the full-scale offensive to the front, that the war has ceased to be a people's war. You also stood in those lines. What do you think has changed the situation so much in two years?
- First, the minority has always been active under any circumstances. Revolution, war, other events. This smaller asset has always stimulated the passive majority to do certain things. As the saying goes, an active minority leads an inactive majority.
In our case, the active minority went straight to the army and showed by example that it was necessary to defend the country with arms in hand.
Then we were able to hold the territory. We defended Kyiv. We drove the enemy back behind the borders at certain points. That is, we stabilized the front. And then there was an upswing - typical of the first months.
Now the situation has stabilized. And unfortunately, the people are used to the fighting, to reports of damage during rocket attacks, to casualties, to air alarms. All this leaves its mark on human potential, on the number of people who are now ready to volunteer. The flow has decreased significantly. And people, unfortunately, are just fulfilling their duty when they are given a draft notice. There are still people who are ready to serve, who apply themselves. But there are many times less of them than there were at the beginning.
I will not say that the war has ceased to be a people's war. We still feel support, people help, ask what we need. We already have more resources than we had when it all started. But there will always be a need for people. Because those who are at the front get tired, exhausted, people get injured, some are released for health reasons or other circumstances.
- Reflecting on the problem of manning the army, you wrote on your social media page: "The way out is to transfer certain support functions to private enterprises (financial services, record management, staffing (military) support, food and fuel supplies, repair and other functions that can be performed by a civilian rather than a military person). It's a kind of military-style outsourcing." How easy is it to implement such an idea in the current environment and what will it bring?
- There are cases when people who are actually on the lists of combat units are assigned to headquarters units to support the activities of battalions and brigades. These are people who know how to make analytical reports, work with tables and documents, and have general basic civil service skills. Accordingly, they are assigned to combat units, but they actually perform tasks in the combat maneuver, financial unit, etc.
And if you posted an ad on Work.ua or Lobby X that a professional accountant or an employee in the general military service with basic skills in such and such a job was needed, you could hire a person who, for health reasons, could sit at a computer and type texts or do some analytical work. Their health condition should not be the same as that required for infantry or assault units. It is possible to conclude contracts to have this function performed by companies per proxy. For example, like with food for a certain period of time.
Now, there are people who outsource the accounting of companies or individual entrepreneurs for a fee. Some firms specialize in recruiting or keeping personnel records, which is the same general military service. That is, some companies can do this work. And we are now instructing mobilized military personnel who have certain skills from civilian life to do all this. So if this idea is implemented, it would, firstly, improve the quality, and secondly, it would probably reduce the resources that the army uses in the form of mobilized accountants, HR staff, clerks, etc.
The third is the level of payment. A soldier receives a bonus because he works in life-threatening conditions and there is a certain risk. And a civilian person who deals with the issues of the military or accounting service should receive a different salary - average or above the market average.
I also wrote in the post that you mentioned about one more way - to specify compulsory military service for future civil servants of certain structures at the legislative level. And this has recently been stipulated in the draft law on mobilization finalized by the Cabinet of Ministers.
- Speaking about the option of involving civilian specialists, can you work remotely or do you need to be with the military unit?
- Everything can be arranged. Some people need to be directly in the area of the unit's tasks in order to be effective. And some people can be on the so-called reserve. If the unit's permanent base is in Lviv, some people may be in Lviv. They simply complete the necessary documents remotely. For example, a transfer in the command staff. The report is scanned, put into the electronic document management system, and the person can work with these documents remotely. Various services can work remotely depending on their specifics.
- We need to protect this data somehow. If these are civilians, they do not bear the same responsibility as the military.
- One of the terms of the contract can be non-disclosure. And there is a certain understanding of the limits of access.
The commander who manages these people can be a military officer with the appropriate clearance level. He or she provides the scope of work and monitors the implementation.
- Is there a similar practice in other countries?
- As far as I know, in the US and Canada, many services are outsourced to the military. Of course, they have their own bureaucratic tradition of management, and it is different from ours. We need to study this more deeply and see what we can use.
Even our enemy has this practice. They use engineering units to equip their positions.
- So, do they involve civilians in this?
- Yes. On the second line, on the third line, they set up exactly like that. If you go to the enemy's positions, you see what they are doing and what we are doing, and theirs is done "like in a book." Theirs is better equipped and thought out in terms of engineering training. Just as the charter says that there should be four lines of defense, so it will be at the distance it is written.
- And why is it different for us?
- We do, too, but, for example, this arrangement is the responsibility of an infantry unit. The unit is on the defensive. It has to prepare a conditional defense line, and it has limited resources. Units do not always have engineering equipment and excavators.
Ours, of course, are looking for opportunities to close certain issues through volunteers.
- They say that this year will be a year of defense, and we will not be attacking so much as holding the front line. So, maybe the issue of arranging defense lines is now number one?
- The General Staff has a full range of data to make certain decisions.
As for the year of defense, as you call it, wise books on the theory of military tactics and strategy say that the best defense is an offensive. In our case, it is an active defense with elements of counteroffense. I am referring to the so-called "small cuts" tactic, which constantly keeps the enemy on his toes so that he cannot relax and free up some resources to strike. In my opinion, this is the best way to use our resources.
"THERE ARE NO SUCH MARCHING COLUMNS AS THERE WERE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL-SCALE WAR"
- I spoke to one of the military experts, and he said that we should have started mobilizing and training people last summer.
- When a year has passed, we can say what we should or should not have done. But in November 2022, when Kherson was liberated, no one expected that we would be stuck in the same position for another year. Everyone was planning to move forward somewhere else. But in war, even modeling the situation with the use of advanced technologies does not give you 100% guarantees that it will be like that.
- How long have you been in the Kherson region?
- Since November 2022. We took part in the counter-offensive, and in fact, since then, we have been in the area of the right bank of the Dnipro River, between Kherson and Kakhovka.
- Recently, many facts have come to light about the embezzlement of funds that should have been spent on the army, corruption schemes, huge bribes in the courts, etc. How do people at the front react to this? Does it affect motivation?
- The military is sensitive to such information and reacts strongly to it, saying that while we are fighting here, they are stealing or taking bribes over there.
Of course, I don't like this either, but as a commander, I emphasize that such facts have been revealed, and such people should be brought to justice.
- I don't know how to explain it logically, maybe it's my personal feeling, but it seems that in the first months of the Russian offensive it was easier.
- It was really easier because the people were on the rise, there were a lot of volunteer fighters, they saw each other, shoulder to shoulder, there were no scandals. And then people got used to the war.
In addition, two years of full-scale war are gradually becoming exhausting, so people are focusing more on domestic issues.
I sincerely believe that we will have a better result in 2024.
- Kherson region is constantly under enemy fire. Are people returning to the de-occupied territories?
- Many people came back as soon as it was de-occupied. There is only a problem with the forward positions, where the combat zone is. There, artillery is simply destroying villages, and people are fleeing. But in the reasonable zone of 15-20 kilometers to the front line and further inland, life is as it was and is. The infrastructure is being restored little by little, where it can be restored.
- Have the Russians' tactics changed now?
- They are adapting to the conditions of warfare just like we are. We are probably doing it faster because we have a very strong ability to use technology at the private initiative level, and this number of FPV drones that have appeared has a lot to do with it. Volunteers, volunteer organizations, private initiatives - we have a lot of it. It is not difficult to get FPV drones if you have trained pilots.
The Russians have a stronger point in that they have a centralized approach to this. They have government orders, they have FPV drones, and they are precisely made at a conditional factory. And they have a systematic use of kamikaze drones and Lancets. They are developing the Lancet unit, and it is strong in terms of tactical control of our rear lines. This creates additional difficulties and requires more resources to counteract.
They are also trying to counter our drones. We hear from intercepts that they say they have suffered heavy losses due to FPV drones. They really consider them a serious problem.
As for tanks or other heavy equipment, there are no longer such marching columns as there were at the beginning of the full-scale war. There is, of course, equipment, and they attack. But now this equipment, as per the charter, lives for 15 minutes. Until the first drones start pecking them to death in swarms. They just burn them.
The tactics in terms of the use of weapons have also changed. Nowadays, drones are used a lot to destroy both infantry and equipment. Previously, we relied on such means as NLAW, Javelin, Stugna. This was the case in 2022, but 2023 changed the whole situation.
Previously, the enemy could drive a tank along a bend in the landscape or terrain, make a shot and hide in a hollow, but now it doesn't work that way anymore. The hollow is no longer an obstacle. The drone just comes up and hits from above. The drone can hit a tank in an area where other line-of-sight means are not available. That's why the Russians are now shooting from the maximum distance, which means they are shooting with minimal efficiency, i.e. not accurately. But they are doing this to save their equipment and personnel. From where we cannot reach them. Or from such hiding places that it is difficult to calculate them.
That is, this is the tactic of positional warfare in the Kherson sector. We have a river here as a natural barrier, and both sides are adjusting their tactics of use of force.
- They have unlimited human resources. And how do they motivate them to mobilize, to assault? Is it high salaries?
- No, I think it's more likely fear. I know that their soldiers are given a task: either go forward or don't come back. That is, there is more fear than ideological conviction. They are advancing over the corpses of their fighters, over the remnants of previous assault groups, which they hardly ever take away.
If there is an opportunity to take them away - somewhere in the woods or under the protection of the territory or premises - they can drag their dead away. But where there are open areas, bodies can lie for weeks or months.
- I can't imagine how you've been holding out in such conditions for so long, given that you went to the front in the first days of the offensive. What do you think of the predictions that the war will last for a long time?
- On the one hand, you realize that you are tired. And when you visit Kyiv, you see how intense civilian life can be beyond the front line. On the other hand, you don't want to look back and realize that you have a chance to repeat a hundred-year history. This motivates you to stay and make even more efforts. Frankly, I don't see myself living abroad, I don't want to immigrate. It motivates me to keep fighting. The main thing is that there should be as many people who are ready to fight as possible.
Tetiana Bodnia, Censor.NET
