Pavlo Kuzmenko, mayor of Okhtyrka (Sumy region): "We have hits in 40 seconds if it’s ballistic missile. If it’s launch from airplane, it takes 2-2.5 minutes. I was counting at beginning of war."
Sumy region is currently under attack. The whole world already knows about the horrors on its border areas, about the completely destroyed villages and total evacuation, but many cities in the region - Sumy, Shostka, Konotop, Trostianets, Bilopillia and others - are also suffering from regular shelling.
Among those shelled was Okhtyrka, a city that suffered terribly from the enemy at the beginning of the war but did not allow itself to be captured. On March 17, there were 3 explosions in the city, after which electricity was cut off in some parts of the city.
We talked to the mayor of Okhtyrka, Pavlo Kuzmenko, about new threats and old military victories of the city; about bomb shelters and their use, and in general, about how the life of a frontline city is organized amid the anxieties of war.
-Pavlo, do I understand correctly that before this rocket attack, there had been no rocket attacks in Okhtyrka for a long time?
- Yes. From 17 May 2022.
- The press release said that the enemy targeted infrastructure facilities. Now that some time has passed, can you tell us what these objects are? Or is it not necessary yet?
- No, it's not. I don't want to talk about it at all until the war is over.
- How did the city's residents react to the strike? For example, in Sumy, after a year and a half of relative silence, people got used to ignoring the air raid alert and walked the streets without a care in the world. Now, when the city is hit by a series of missile and drone strikes, they run to bomb shelters or at least take cover behind two walls. Is the situation similar in Okhtyrka?
- 70-90% of Okhtyrka residents have not seen what war is. They left at the beginning and then returned. Just like a significant part of Sumy residents who had never heard explosions and believed that the war was still going on somewhere in Donetsk-Luhansk; and if anyone was being shelled, it was a little bit of Kherson and Odesa.
This caution cannot be imposed. Over the past two years, we have made many decisions through the emergency commission, through executive committee decisions, sessions: to restrict, ban, and so on. And each time it seemed that people were doing everything to prove their superiority to local governments; to show that they did not care at all; that life and war were not about them and not for them.
- Can you give us some examples?
- For example, when motorcyclists ride their bikes at extremely high speeds even when the curfew begins. Moreover, they do it intentionally, and sometimes it seems that only grief can keep people from doing this: someone has died, someone is missing, someone is wounded or fighting on the front line. For the rest of the people, part of the responsibility is shifted to local governments, part to the state authorities, and they, these people, have to live as they did before...
Unfortunately, nothing changes. In the city of Okhtyrka, the number of cars has tripled over the past two years. Cars themselves have become twice as expensive, despite the cost of fuel. A typical picture: there was an explosion and traffic jams were created. Even emergency services cannot get through! In a small town like ours, everyone thinks they're going to jump in a car and hide. And no one realizes that when the sound is heard, the explosion has already taken place.
- How much time do the residents of Okhtyrka have to respond to the danger? Let's imagine that the missile was immediately detected and an air raid alarm was sounded in the city. How much time do the citizens have to run to the bomb shelters?
- 40 seconds if it`s a ballistic missile. If it's launched from an airplane, then 2-2.5 minutes. I was counting back in the first month of the full-scale invasion. When an airplane crosses the border, we are informed from the border that it is heading in your direction. If it strikes, we will hear an explosion in 2-2.5 minutes. That's why I had a long and serious discussion about security issues with the previous head of the regional military administration. Because today I am one of the few people who saw these attacks with my own eyes. Such a person will argue, he is not afraid of anything. And everyone else quickly agrees with any instructions from the center.
- For example?
- Back in 2022, schools were opened in a mixed or offline format throughout the Sumy region. Only Okhtyrka, apparently, did not open. But, for example, the "heroic" mayor of Trostianets was the first to open one. Because he had never heard of this airplane; he did not understand what it was and how fast it was coming. He didn't know until last week when it hit and we didn't even have time to turn on the air raid alarm. Then, I think, everything turns upside down pretty quickly. Otherwise, how can you say to 20 children in kindergartens or schools at the same time, "Dear students, tie your shoes and go down to the basement?"
- So you have only an online form of study at schools in Okhtyrka, haven`t you?
- No, we haven't. In 2023, we built these shelters wherever possible. We have shelters in all schools. However, only in two kindergartens, because the groundwater is close, we could not build shelters. And we studied in a mixed mode. One day it was online, the next day it was offline. This is a certain form of education. Until last week, everyone was satisfied with it. They also tried to organize competitions, despite the fact that the mayor of Okhtyrka was, as always, against it and said: "Dear friends, don't make a cult out of this! If the competition were held in Kyiv, it would be fine. If the competition takes place somewhere in Zakarpattia or Prykarpattia, that would be great! But if we want to hold the competition in the city of Okhtyrka, I am categorically against it.
- Since we are talking about bomb shelters, what is the situation with them?
Let me answer you this way. How many bomb shelters saved the Israelis who died? And they had been preparing all their lives. And for the past 20 years, they have been telling us how great the bomb shelters are, what safe rooms they have, various gadgets, and everything else. And during this time, I have not heard a single testimony from an Israeli who said: "I was saved by a bomb shelter. Or my room saved me. Or some divine power saved me. Or they had not been saved.
- You seem to be too skeptical about bomb shelters.
- You see, in the event of a sudden alarm in our case, a person will not have time to get there at that particular time. Or the door might not be open on the other side.
No, I agree that there should be shelters in case you need to sit out a certain period of time. When there is constant cannonade, you can stay until the evacuation is announced and then evacuate. But how can you teach people to live in shelters? In my opinion, they did not save anyone. And if we take into account the thermobaric bombs that came to us, these shelters could well become mass graves. Unfortunately, there is an example of this.
This is my opinion. If we did not make the shelters beautiful but invested more in the defense of the border, I think the effectiveness would be much greater. At the same time, we built shelters for schools and kindergartens. We did. Statistically speaking, the city of Okhtyrka had 48,000 residents before the full-scale invasion.
-And what about now?
- It`s 43 thousand. Statistically speaking, our city is almost one hundred percent provided with shelters. But we do not take into account the circumstances. People who live near the shelter itself or above the shelter as well as those who need to get to the shelter in 3 minutes will not be on equal terms. Unfortunately, the second category is many times larger. Therefore, it is unreasonable to rely on shelters alone in this case. Yes, you need to go down to the shelter when you have already heard and felt it. Only in cities like Okhtyrka, you either need to live and work in a shelter or realize that you will not have time to go down there when your time comes. I know I'm the mayor and I shouldn't say this. But...
- It is absolutely clear that the Sumy region has entered a phase of more intense shelling not only of the border area but also of key cities. Are the local authorities in Okhtyrka stockpiling food, medicine and water? Or do you have your own planning line?
- I have my own line. Hindsight is 20/20. We can prepare for anything, just like one of our not-so-good friends once did. He always carried a big bag of very expensive medicines with him and said: this will never happen to me! And another friend of mine, who was a self-sufficient person, said: I'm sorry, you'll get hit by a car. And so it happened. That person died from the coronavirus.
- What is the meaning of this parable?
- You can't be ready for all cases. We have proven algorithms; we are writing them down and perfecting them in a new way. But if we don't lift water from the water tables, we will have bottled water for a maximum of 2-3 days. And we can lift it from the water tables thanks to powerful generators; thanks to the fact that we have a sufficient number of water wells and everything else.
- So you have this option thought out in advance?
- We have thought through many options. And if there is a massive shelling, the only way to escape is to evacuate. Everything else...
- Is there an influx of evacuated IDPs in Okhtyrka?
- Let me put it another way. Recently, when the RVC (Russian Volunteer Corps) and everything else entered Russia, we were not given any information. So on Monday evening, together with my deputies, we decided to go to the border area to the head of that community. Unfortunately, we do not meet with her there. But we see everything with our own eyes, and on Tuesday morning we hold a state of emergency commission. We identify places for temporary compact living, transfer certain institutions where these people will stay to distance learning. We determine who will feed them, who will take them away, who will be responsible for what. And to date, a large number of people have moved into our community. But. They all came to visit their relatives and friends. And in the areas of compact settlement today there are already about 100 people.
- Are you satisfied with the coordination with the regional military administration and Kyiv?
- I am one hundred percent satisfied (smiles - Ye.K.).
- I'm going to ask you in a generalized way so as not to give the enemy too much information. Are you working to provide your area with sufficient air defense cover? You yourself say that if you have to choose between a million bomb shelters and air defense, the latter is preferable. So how is it going?
- If we say that it is being conducted, the enemy will read our interview somewhere and say: well, we will show you how it is going on there. Yesterday, two ballistic missiles hit us, and the siren didn't even turn on...
Is the work in progress? Well, we are working. I don't know how effective it is... In general, let's say this: our defenders are working on the verge of the possible and impossible to protect the sky and our city.
- Can you explain the logic behind not telling people exactly where an enemy missile or drone hit? It's hard to assume that the enemy doesn't have this information. Is this done in order not to oppress the locals?
- No. Look, there are a lot of people who returned to our city after a month and a half back in 2022. And these people, many of whom did not even see the enemy through binoculars, began to accuse me of saying that if it were not for the mayor and his videos, our city would not have been destroyed. I agree with one part of their statements, but I wanted to clarify the other part for those who want to hear.
- Go ahead.
- Indeed, if the mayor and his team had left the city and the enemy had passed through our city, it would not have been destroyed. In this part I agree, because there are cities that their leadership left, and the enemy columns passed through them quietly in one direction, and in some cities - in the opposite direction, because they were deliberately let through.
- There were indeed cases that will probably be studied after this war is over.
- And there are cities and mayors who boast about it: we agreed that they passed through us, both there and back. And there are videos confirming that, in order not to destroy us, our city, let them leave. They left and then went to Bakhmut, to Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and hundreds or thousands of our people have been killed there. But they have not destroyed a part of your city. Only before they left, they had no fuel and everything else, they could have been destroyed back then; they could have taken dozens and hundreds of vehicles that were running out of fuel, because many T-80s had entered, and they only run on kerosene... Many occupiers had run out of ammunition or something else, and they should not have been allowed to leave.
But yes, those cities are not destroyed. They reached an agreement and now they feel like heroes. And our city was destroyed. So, at that time, my main task was to wage an information war and inform the whole world that the city of Okhtyrka was being destroyed and civilians were being killed.
Because psyop, the enemy's information propaganda, has been so well developed over the years that such a statement as a military operation was perceived by the world as a military operation: the military came in and changed the government by military means. But if the military of one country kills civilians of another country, this is a war.
And so, in February-March 2022, I made videos every day from the sites of destruction in my city. Yes, sometimes I stood with my back to certain objects that should not be shown. Why did I do this? Because I was showing the destruction of civilian infrastructure. But at that time, the enemy was so close to us and so far into the country that several of their Orlans were flying over our city at the same time. And there were so many informants in the city that they could not be identified. Because there were different units, different people in the city, there was a certain orderly chaos (orderly because there was still a constant supply of electricity, water, internet, and everything else). But the enemy had a presence in our city. And it made no difference to them whether the place of hit was confirmed or not. Because they knew where they were hit, absolutely.
And the mayor of Okhtyrka was later accused of causing harm by making his videos and showing them to the whole world.
- Don't you think so, do you?
- You know, today no one is interested in Bakhmut, Velyka Pysarivka and other affected settlements. They are not interested because the world is used to it. But Okhtyrka, in the first month of the full-scale invasion, showed the places of destruction. And I showed the destroyed civilian infrastructure. And at the same time, Russian Orlans were constantly flying overhead. They were watching whether they had achieved their goal or not. By the way, today these Orlans are also flying in the near border area. They see whether they have achieved their goal or not. But the farther away from the border, they could not have been unaware whether the Russians had hit the target, whether they were 200 meters to the right or 200 meters to the left.
- Is it for this reason you (and not only you) refuse to report which objects the enemy hit?
That is why today, when there is no direct evidence of certain hits, we should not help the enemy with unnecessary information. Of course, where they have visualization, there is no difference. However, in some cases, it is necessary to show and tell. For example, in cases of destruction of civilian homes, so that the West is not as calm as it is now.
And maybe in some cases of hits, it's necessary to work it out with a certain delay. That's why we show some things in 5 days or a week...
- Finally, what important topics or issues do you think I have passed off in our conversation? Or did I ask you what you could have asked?
- Today, I have given the task to the entire information sector: to make the information silence as much as possible. Report only about IDPs, only about community life, about critical infrastructure (if there are, God forbid, failures). Otherwise, we need to keep the information silence to the maximum.
Yevhen Kuzmenko, Censor.NET
Photo: Pavlo Kuzmenko's Facebook
