Yurii Butusov: "200 soldiers died in the military barracks in Mykolaiv. Conclusions should have been drawn then"
Yurii Butusov, editor-in-chief of Censor.NET, on Radio NV about why the tragedy was allowed in the 128th Brigade, how many such cases have already occurred in the Ukrainian army, why generals and brigade commanders do not draw conclusions and are not ready to learn, how NATO standards work only on paper, what is happening with mobilization and why the military is dismissed without explanation.
Yurii Butusov, Editor-in-Chief of Censor.NET, has already joined us. Yurii, can you hear me?
- I hear you, hello!
-Hello! We are now moving on to what is happening in Ukraine. The situation with the death of soldiers of the 128th brigade in the frontline area. A lot has already been said on the air: that an investigation is needed, many questions to the brigade commander, etc. Conceptually speaking, Yurii, do you think we may need any changes to the military statutes? Perhaps this should be done taking into account the fact that this war combines both elements of the First World War and the war of the future with the involvement of artificial intelligence systems. And should the troop command and control system be adjusted, among other things? What do you think?
- In fact, this issue does not concern any statutes and rules. This is a real tactic of modern warfare, when the entire near zone of 20-30 km, that is, the zone of destruction by long-range weapons and enemy aircraft, is systematically controlled by enemy drones. Of course, if the commander takes care of the lives of the personnel, he himself makes sure that there are no such concentrations of troops visible from the drone in this area. It's not a matter of rules. It's a matter of common sense.
- In your opinion, what conclusions will we draw from this? If it does not need to be prescribed anywhere, there are certain regulations for commanders, if it is a matter of common sense. What are the conclusions for the future?
- The main conclusion is that when there are large unjustified losses of personnel in the army, which could and should have been avoided, each of these cases should be the subject of analysis – and this is exactly what NATO standards, that is, the so-called after action review, require. In the U.S. Army, this is the TC2520 standard. In our country, all these standards are just chatter that no commander, no general practices or uses. If we had such a postoperative analysis, then we would have brought the necessary conclusions to the command staff at least on March 18, 2022. When the units of the 137th Battalion were brought together in one barracks in Mykolaiv, almost 200 Ukrainian soldiers were killed by two rockets. Unfortunately, our military command is absolutely irresponsible for people's lives, so no one draws conclusions. As we can see, such tragedies happen every now and then. Some are simply not known to the public due to secrecy. That is, the army does not care about the lives of its personnel at all. And the deaths of a significant number of servicemen will never be properly assessed, which is why this is repeated.
- That is, there are NATO standards where all this is provided. The country is moving towards NATO. At least that's what we declare. Even in the Constitution, it is prescribed. At the same time, we do not comply with certain regulations. But the army is the place where it is perhaps the easiest to implement. In a willful way, since there is a certain order that must be carried out. And what is the problem then, if we talk about the introduction of NATO standards?
- The main problem is the lies of the Ukrainian leadership that we are moving to NATO standards. All these years, our commanders in chief, all the generals just lie that we're moving on them. In fact, apart from changing the names of the C-2 and C-3 signs, nothing has been changed. Well, they also changed the rank according to NATO standards, that's it. Governance and NATO standards have begun to be taught in educational institutions, but no NATO management and organization standards are applied in the Ukrainian army. None. This is all a lie about the movement to standards, and this is all manipulation of public opinion in order to mislead the Ukrainian people and our partners. But in fact, no standard works and is not applied in Ukraine. And first of all, it is after action review. That is the analysis of previous actions that should take place and that never happens in our country.
- The background for our further rapprochement with NATO countries is not very optimistic. In your opinion, did General Zaluzhnyi agree with this conclusion and with such an assessment?
- I don't know what he agreed with. You should ask him if you have the chance. I'm talking about the real things that are now in the army. I say things for which I am responsible, and I guarantee you that no person, no leader in the army will be able to refute this. Or in the President's Office.
- What do you think is the barrier to the introduction of the standards that distinguish modern armies?
- Lack of desire to make real reforms and desire to learn. The standards should begin with the fact that it is not soldiers and sergeants who should learn, but the top leaders – the General Staff, commanders of all branches of the armed forces – who should learn. First of all, they should study and pass exams on knowledge of NATO statutes and standard operating procedures. And they need time to study, practice, and understand. Of course, people in uniform, generals, do not want to learn this. And they don't want to be responsible for implementing these standards.
- This is all the more surprising because it is the law of self-preservation in order to save both your life and the lives of your subordinates. How do you think standards can be put in place to help do this?
- There is only one way in the army – an order. If someone wants to introduce standards, they need to issue an order and monitor its implementation. Such an order should be issued, first of all, by the Supreme Commander-in-Chief to his subordinate structures – the Commander of the National Guard, the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. To issue orders and monitor implementation, but this was not done. There are only declarations, words. Everyone has learned the words, but no one wants to do it.
- That is, what we are talking about now. How do you think this affects military aid to Ukraine?
- This question is not about what we have with military aid. This question has to do with the fact that we weaken ourselves. We ourselves do not want to learn, to draw conclusions, our leaders do not want to take responsibility. And the main thing that this affects is the death of the defenders of Ukraine. This is what affects on a first, fifth, and twenty-fifth-priority basis. And then there are such small things as military aid.
- We have a season of cold showers here, actually, I think you will agree. A cold shower in Time, a cold shower of General Zaluzhnyi in an essay in The Economist. At least, that's how many appreciated the statement of the real picture. You're currently taking a cold shower on the air. Do you think is it real to restructure the army during the war? And how can this be done, given that we always have limited deadlines for anything?
- Any restructuring and reforms are really possible only during the war. Only war is the stimulus that makes people change. Unless, of course, they want to win.
- Yurii, in your opinion, will reconstruction, the adoption of NATO standards, progress in this direction, improve the situation with mobilization? There will be more people willing to mobilize with the understanding that they will fall under the command of experienced officers who know their business and at least will not risk their lives while lining up near the front line.
- There will be no more people willing to mobilize. Everyone who wanted to mobilize did so last year. Now people will join the army only according to the circumstances dictated by the laws of Ukraine and personal beliefs. Precisely because it is now necessary to give rest to those who survived the first wave of volunteers, it is necessary to constantly rebuild the army. This is a continuous process of change and reform, which must be adapted to the mass mobilization of people, who are not all volunteers. And most of them are not military professionals and trained. This is a great challenge that was faced in the First and Second World Wars. Now, in World War III, we have to do it ourselves. Here we need to think not about inspiration, about those who are willing, but about the fact that every person who joins the army, even after being forcibly mobilized, must receive appropriate training, proper use according to their capabilities. Real opportunities, not those that someone invents for themselves, thinking that some "John Rambo`s" always serve in the army, and it is enough to say "go, go!" and poke at a point on the map – and that's it. And the offensive has already taken place. We have to be realistic. And we have very common emotional decisions among executives who think that reality becomes as they tell themselves on television and in appeals. But the reality is different. It should be created by certain conditions of working with people, and not by trying to create an emotional background. That's why we have this gap: we say one thing at the telethon, but the reality of the war is completely different. And these two realities, unfortunately, do not intersect at all.
- And Commander-in-Chief Valerii Zaluzhnyi also talks about сlosing gaps in legislation in his essay. Yurii, I understand that the Special Operations Forces are not something that should be on the front pages, on the second pages, and even on the last ones. But many are surprised by how General Khorenko's dismissal took place. What could be the reason, in your opinion?
- It could be anything. The President could wake up in a bad mood, someone told him something about who Khorenko was...In fact, this is a common practice in our country when leaders in the army, in the defense forces are removed and appointed without any explanation and no public logic. Rather, I think, this is some kind of political maneuvering of the President's Office, since General Khorenko is a subordinate of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valerii Zaluzhnyi. Special operations forces are not independent. And if, without the knowledge of the Commander-in-Chief, someone dismisses the commander of the Special Operations Forces, then who can do it? Of course, this cannot be done by Defense Minister Umierov, who himself has been in office for a month or two, who is just still studying who is subordinate to him, what are their names. Of course, this is a political maneuvering from the President's Office. And an attempt to somehow change one loyal leader to some even more loyal one. Unless there are any other intentions. Let's see. Now there is no logic. Neither the minister nor the president said anything at all as to why they removed the man. Neither Khorenko nor Zaluzhnyi knows this. There is a war going on – the leaders of the army do not know why they are being replaced. And this, unfortunately, speaks of the low quality of management of the headquarters of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief.
- By the way, very briefly. Do you know anything about the fact that another dismissal in the system of the defense forces of Ukraine is being prepared? You know, a high-profile one, of course?
- Yes, of course. They talk about it all the time. Because we don't have any logic, no rational requirements. They say that there will be some more dismissals. For some reason, such rumors are constantly spread by the country's leadership. Apparently, it thinks that the military, if they are all constantly frightened by dismissals, will fight better. It seems that this is their understanding of the situation.
- Thank you for another cold shower. You know, I said in one of the broadcasts that such a series of cold showers – you can either get sick from it, or, on the contrary, harden yourself. I hope that we will still go in the direction of hardening. Yurii Butusov, Editor-in-Chief of Cesor.NET, was in touch with us.
