Ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets: "Russians are trying to re-educate children stolen from Ukraine in spirit of "Russian world". There are separate special camps for "difficult children"
In Ukraine, which has been at war for many years, citizens, even children, are being killed, tortured and abducted by Russians. The Ukrainian Parliament Commissioner for Human Rights is an incredibly busy person. The list of areas covered by the Ombudsman and her Office alone is several paragraphs long. And each of these areas has a number of subdivisions...
Therefore, during the hour-long interview with Dmytro Lubinets, we could not, with all our desire, ask him about the full range of his powers and duties. We focused on the main things: the exchange of military and civilian prisoners, the massive theft of Ukrainian children by the occupiers and the "colourful" attitude of different countries to Ukraine's needs in this difficult war.
- Our interview is a summary one, so let's start with some generalisations. What are the 3 statistical indicators that best represent the year 2023 for you as the Ombudsman?
- The first indicator is the number of appeals to the Ombudsman's Office. There are already 92,000 of them - and the year is not yet over. For comparison, over 42,000 appeals were received in the previous year.
- That is, more than double.
- I think that by the end of the year we will reach about 100,000 applications per year.
- And how many people do you have in your office handling these appeals?
- Currently, our institution employs 410 people. When I came, there were 297.
The headcount has increased mainly due to changes in approaches to organising the work of regional offices and a reboot of the regional network as such. What are these changes? This is the establishment of our representative offices and the presence of my Representative in each region of Ukraine. This is a completely new approach. As a result, people know more about us, they contact us more. And they trust us more. I would like to believe that.
- I see. The second indicator?
- In less than a year, we have conducted almost 3,000 monitoring visits(as of the date of the interview - ed.). In various areas: protection of children's rights, protection of the rights of military personnel, veterans; socio-economic block; IDPs (this is a separate area in our institution), equal rights, information rights, and the functioning of the national preventive mechanism. In total, the Ombudsperson's Office has 9 global areas in which we conduct monitoring visits.
- And the third figure?
- As of now, I have almost 5,000 open proceedings. I am talking about the following. For example, a Ukrainian citizen complains about the actions of the prosecutor's office. What does the institution do? It takes the complaint and forwards it to the prosecutor's office. And what is the response?
- Imagine this. The bureaucratic movement of paperwork begins.
- And shifting responsibility.
What do we do? When we receive a complaint, I open proceedings. Not for all of them, but for those violations that, in my opinion, have a systemic character. This is not necessarily an appeal about one person and their rights. There can be one appeal, for example, about non-payment of an IDP family. I open this proceeding and realise that it automatically concerns 2.6 million Ukrainian citizens who are currently receiving IDP payments! And in fact, it may relate to the potential rights of 4.9 million Ukrainian citizens who are officially citizens of Ukraine with IDP status.
My Office also forwards appeals to the relevant authorities. I collect all the information and decide whether the rights of a Ukrainian citizen have been violated. I open proceedings.
That is why 5,000 open proceedings is a significant figure for me.
There is one more figure - about restored rights. This is a new criterion for assessing both our institution and each of my Representatives. It also appeared recently. And we are still thinking about how to count the restored rights.
- Give us an example.
- Let's take the numerous complaints from military personnel. A typical complaint used to be that when you were on a combat mission, you received a salary and combat allowance. But when, for example, you were sent to a military unit after treatment, but it was actually a hospital, you received up to a thousand hryvnias per month, sometimes 800 hryvnias. This is a meagre amount of money. This also applied to those servicemen who were not mobilised, but recruited. They received these amounts per month...
- In fact, it is a huge problem.
- And on the initiative of our institution, the situation has changed. It was on my recommendation that the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine adopted a separate law. Now, the minimum amount of money that servicemen receive, wherever they are - for treatment, psychological rehabilitation, or recovery - is at least UAH 20,000.
And how many rights have we automatically renewed? How do we calculate this?
- How we did it is not so important; the main thing is that we helped those fighting at the frontline and relieved some of the tension in society.
- We do. This is indeed the main mandate of my institution - to be the nerve of society. We have to feel systemic problems in time and respond to them. Or show the government, the parliament, the president that public discontent is building up, which could have negative consequences. So let's do something quickly, or society will demand protection of its rights in a different way.
- In specific areas. In previous years, on the eve of the New Year holidays, we had large exchanges of prisoners of war with Russia. This year, two weeks ago, you said that there would be no exchange in the near future. And only because this is the position of the Russians. I have a question - how did they formulate their position? What did your, so to speak, colleague say...
- (With a smile) the counterparties...
- That's a good term. Did Ms. Moskalkova's counterpart somehow articulate why they didn't want an exchange?
- No, there are not. You see, when we communicate - either through third parties or when I communicate directly with Moskalkova to resolve humanitarian issues - there are no explanations. We just offer something and see how they react.
- And these third parties - who are they?
- These are countries that we are trying to show that if they become mediators in various processes related to the protection of the rights of Ukrainian citizens, this will have positive consequences for them as well.
- Which countries can you name?
- I can name one - Qatar. Look, we have done a difficult job. When I use the word "we", I mean various representatives of Ukraine, starting with the President, the Head of the Presidential Office, ministers, law enforcement officials, among others. After all, there were different meetings, different platforms, different levels of communication, starting with the Prime Minister, national security advisers, my colleague from Qatar. I even personally travelled to Qatar and met with the State Minister for International Cooperation.
And look how it ended up for Qatar. We offered them to become a mediator. Now the whole world knows that the only country in the world that helps Ukraine return Ukrainian children is Qatar. We also offer other countries the same: please, we need your help, because you have your own communication with the Russian Federation. We are not talking about any areas other than humanitarian. At least I am, because my block is the humanitarian one. I am negotiating with many representatives of different countries in Europe, Asia, and the East.
- Returning to the exchange, how do you assess why the Russians put it on hold?
- Why pause? These are my conspiratorial, let's say, conclusions. I think that the Russians are looking at the situation and trying to use this situation against the current Ukrainian government through relatives of prisoners of war, victims of enforced disappearances, and political prisoners.
- I would like to quote you on this topic. "In my opinion, the Russian Federation has now adopted a new strategy - not to return almost anyone. At the same time, they are contacting relatives, both civilians and prisoners of war, and trying to tell them that they are ready to return everyone and that it is actually Ukraine that allegedly does not want to take them away."
How do you find out about such contacts of relatives of illegally detained and imprisoned civilians? Do they tell you about it themselves?
- There are different situations. We partly receive information from relatives. They tell us directly: 'Yesterday they called me, such and such a phone number...
- Are they dialing from Russian numbers?
- Yes, and they do it quite openly, consciously. And another indicator is that they don't even call via the Internet. You know, in general, we are now more used to using various messengers and the Internet. And there, they dial directly, through an operator, centrally and openly. This is to record that there is a direct call from a tower in the Russian Federation. They even introduce themselves: I am so-and-so, I work there...
- Do you think this is part of a hybrid war?
- I think so. This is one of the newest ISIS against our country.
- Unfortunately, not all citizens call you and tell you about these conversations...
- 100% that not all.
- Some people start telling their relatives and friends, others give money...
- They give money. They undertake to perform intelligence functions for the Russians. We have already recorded facts when relatives went to take pictures of military units and passed this information on. There are many such cases - that's why I say that, in my opinion, this is a new tactic of the Russian Federation against our country.
- Recently, your Office and Moskalkova's Office inspected the detention of 119 Russian and Ukrainian prisoners of war. The Russians reported that our prisoners of war were fine. Do you have any opportunities to verify their words?
- Both we and they recorded videos when communicating with prisoners of war - we have an agreement that communication should be recorded. These videos (incomplete, sometimes quite short), which were sent to us from the Russian side, we then sent to the relatives of the prisoners of war. In this way, we at least established the fact that these soldiers were alive. Because I cannot say about any of them that they are healthy. I can't call any prisoner of war of the Armed Forces of Ukraine who is on the territory of the Russian Federation or on the temporarily occupied territory of Ukraine healthy. Even from the video, I can see that everyone has lost a lot of weight - we are well aware of what is happening there and what the occupiers are doing to Ukrainians. I constantly emphasise this to the Russian counterpart: just compare the conditions of your Russian prisoners of war with those of ours.
- You even sent food parcels to the Russian prisoners, so that they wouldn't have to be embarrassed in front of Europe...
- We are. We even regularly organise visits by international partners to a special camp for Russian prisoners of war. It operates in Ukraine as part of the Geneva Conventions.
- Are there 28,000 verified civilians illegally detained by Russia?
- Not quite so. These 28,000 are people who are considered missing under special circumstances and unlawfully deprived of their personal liberty as a result of Russia's armed aggression against Ukraine. That is, this is the total figure for all categories.
In addition, in 2023, the Unified Register of Persons Disappeared in Special Circumstances, managed by the Ministry of Internal Affairs, finally became operational. Although the Ukrainian parliament passed the law back in 2018. The register was finally launched this year. As of now, this figure is those who are in the register. Both civilians and military.
- And the real, unverified figure? Will it be many times higher?
- There will be much more. I can only guess how much. But definitely many times more. If not even tenfold. Again, there will be not only those citizens who are captured by the Russian Federation, but also those whom the Russians killed, for example, in Mariupol. How can we check how many civilians were killed in Mariupol if there are whole families killed there? There is no one to inform them that part of their family has been killed. This is a separate tragedy - how to verify everyone, how to find information about their whereabouts.
- How does this fragmented information about civilians reach us? Are they mostly employees of Russian courts or related structures who are sympathetic to us for some reason? Or are they employees of the Russian penitentiary system who cynically want to get money for some kind of help to our prisoners or information about them? It's a series of deals: you give me money, and I'll report something or see if he's in a good condition. Is this enough?
- And there are enough of them. Here you have to understand that if I tell you all the channels for receiving information, they will be closed. In general terms, I can say that we currently have channels for receiving information from the territory of the Russian Federation and the temporarily occupied territory of Ukraine. Are they enough? No, they are not. Do we receive complete information? No. Do we need to work on establishing new mechanisms for receiving information? Yes.
- And we still have to check whether the information is true, whether it is not another operation of the enemy.
- 100%. In general, your question reveals one of the failures of the international human rights system (which does not actually exist in the world). I say this quite consciously and publicly. For example, the Russians have claimed that 744,000 Ukrainian children are on their territory. How should the international system act? We are asking, for example, the United Nations: please ask another UN member, Russia, about the list of 744,000 children. Where are they, in what conditions are they living, what is happening to their parents, what is happening to their legal guardians? These are Ukrainian children. After all, the Russians have publicly said this: yes, Ukrainian children. And we, as a state, are responsible for our Ukrainian children. At least we want to show that we are ready to do so.
So what do I do? I send an official letter to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights: give me this information. They: where can you get this information? We said: ask the Russians. Well, they did. Do you know what the answer was?
- What is it?
- No response. 3 days ago, I received a letter for the first time with a response from the High Commissioner on this issue.
- And what was in that letter?
- That they are deeply concerned about the situation with Ukrainian children.
- I can just see our readers' cheekbones stiffening - just like mine right now.
- Once again, yes. They continue to work on obtaining such information. And I am also assured that they are doing everything they can to get this information. That's all. I already know their answer: the Russians do not give them such information, and they do nothing to get it. It's very simple!
- A bureaucratic institution with a bloated staff and an unworked protocol for emergencies...
- In general, the organisation that was created as a result of the Second World War, an organisation whose purpose was to prevent aggression in the world, and if aggression occurs, to respond quickly, and now this organisation is showing absolute inefficiency and ineffectiveness. Despite the fact that some of its bodies help us. For example, UNICEF, the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine - they have finally started to record human rights violations and deal with them.
But these are rather exceptions. I want to see a system that should have been built a long time ago and show a quick response.
- We will come back to this. In the November briefing of the Ombudsman's Office, I found the following information: "The Ombudsman of Ukraine, Dmytro Lubinets, visited the Kherson region after the de-occupation and saw with his own eyes the torture chambers where children were held. After some time, he talked to a 14-year-old boy who was held there, and the Office of the Prosecutor General found that 75 Ukrainian children had suffered from torture by the Russian military."
Question: why did the Russians usually torture our children? Did they draw our art? Did they hang up leaflets? Or for a careless word?
- We have no evidence that the Russians tortured Ukrainian children because they were actually helping the Armed Forces of Ukraine in some way. We do not involve children in the conduct of child soldiering. How do the Russians interpret this? That these are all Ukrainian spies. A striking example is this boy Vitaliy, with whom I spoke. We showed him publicly - but we don't mention his name, we blur his face... I asked him: how did you end up in this torture chamber? He said that he came to the outskirts of the village, where Russian equipment had been destroyed. He came with his uncle, his family, to look at it. They are watching. A Russian car appears nearby. Russian soldiers get out and say: you are taking pictures of Russian equipment and sending them to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The guy says: search me, I don't even have a mobile phone. And so does his uncle. Do you think this stopped the Russians? No, it didn't. They immediately beat them both severely. They were blindfolded, thrown into a car and driven somewhere for over an hour. As it was later established, they were brought to Kherson, to this very torture chamber. The uncle was tortured in his own way, the boy in his own way.
- What is your uncle's fate?
- Both the uncle and the boy are alive. But only one thing saved them - the fact that the Armed Forces of Ukraine entered Kherson. The boy and uncle were simply abandoned there. The Russians left quickly and did not pay attention anymore...
This boy was there for 10 days. He received his first meal on the sixth day. In addition to him, there were 13 other adult men with him. They were given 5 litres of water per day! Vitaliy says that every day he was taken for interrogation, and deliberately led past the room where direct torture was carried out. They would show him: 'Look. They beat our guys very severely. They forced him to watch and said: 'You will do the same. They beat him several times. Once he was taken to the execution. They said: you're a Ukrainian spy, you don't want to tell us anything - that's it, you're going to be shot, we're not going to play with you.
- According to the Children of War information portal, to which your Office also refers, the Russians have already taken 19,546 children. This is the data for November.
- In fact, this figure has not changed in recent months, and I will explain why. 19,546 are recorded cases of forced transfer to the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine or deportation of Ukrainian children by Russia. This means that we, as the Ukrainian authorities, know the surname, name, patronymic, date of birth, where this Ukrainian child is from, what settlement he or she is currently in on the territory of the Russian Federation.
- This is despite the fact that in many cases the traces are lost because they are given new names and a second life, a Russian one.
- I would not say that they are being given a second life. I would say that they are being re-educated and brought up in the spirit of the 'Russian world'. They say that you have always been Russians. There has never been a Ukraine as a state, or a Ukrainian ethnic group, or a Ukrainian language. "You are Russians. You should be happy now that you can finally identify yourself as real people, real Russians," they say.
- And then it all depends on the individual child - on age, upbringing, willpower, and many factors.
- It is. You are absolutely right. We understand that there are children who show by all their actions that they do not want to put up with this. It is precisely for the re-education of these so-called 'difficult children' that separate special camps have been set up. We have counted at least 43 of them - all over Russia and the temporarily occupied territory of Ukraine, including Crimea.
- These are de facto concentration camps.
- Yes, it is. Does the child not want to recognise himself as Russian, despite the pressure? Well, then "we need to 'work' with you in addition. To the camp."
It is clear that it is arranged as a holiday. You go to a special camp to rest, everything will be fine! And there these children are subjected to additional psychological and sometimes physical pressure.
- 19,546 is a figure that is hard to comprehend.
- And this is just the figure we have verified. As soon as a new verification mechanism appears, it will grow.
- I have the impression that, as the Ombudsman, the impossibility of returning these children home angers and torments you perhaps more than any other problem you deal with. Each case is a separate human fate.
- Every case. And not just children. You've probably had that feeling too - when you bang your head against a closed door...
- This is what I mean. You seem to be doing what you can, but this state monster is bringing everything to naught.
- It is true. This applies not only to children. It concerns both civilians and prisoners of war. It would seem, what is the problem with repatriating prisoners of war? There is the Geneva Convention, where everything is spelled out; there is supposedly the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is supposed to monitor this. But in fact, nothing works. Zero. And you cannot understand why. You offer one option, another, another. Every day you come up with new approaches. You think about who else to involve, what else to offer? Where to go? Where to perform? And you can't just break it.
- Recently, there was information that State Duma deputy Mironov and his wife had adopted a child stolen from Ukraine. He denied this. But the same is true of the Russian children's ombudsman, Lvova-Belova. In general, there are serious assumptions that Russian elites have a social competition to take stolen Ukrainian children into their families and make them "proper Russians". They just don't really advertise it. They also turn stolen children into imperialists, bring them up in various military institutions, and change their documents. What else?
- Yes, the documents are changed. This is the system. Here I can only confirm that the entire state apparatus of the Russian Federation is working to deport Ukrainian children. Everyone is doing it - publicly, privately, by setting their own example, taking away a Ukrainian child and thus supporting this trend.
- Is there any more information about high-ranking Russian officials who adopted stolen children from Ukraine?
- We have confirmed this information about Mironov. We are checking the rest. Everyone who is guilty must be punished. Everything will happen in due course.
- How many of our children have been returned? Even if someone grumbles that we didn't return incomparably more, it's still a big plus that we got someone out of there. And another question: are the Russians who help bring Ukrainian children back to Ukraine in any danger? We sarcastically call them "good Russians" - and yet they help...
- As for the "good" Russians, I will say this: in my work, I see those who help us to return. But I cannot call them "good" or "kind" for sure. I think they do it because they need to do it for something else.
- Why?
- I don't know. For example, to increase their influence in the Russian Federation. In my opinion, the mass control apparatus in the Russian Federation is so seriously and systematically built that it is impossible to do anything there without the approval of the relevant authorities. It is impossible. When I see various initiatives allegedly from NGOs, unions, lawyers, I clearly understand that the proposed option on the Russian side has already been worked out and approved.
Again, I am not saying that we cannot work in such conditions. If we are returning children, it means that even in such conditions we were able to find arguments or tools that allow us to return children.
Regarding the number of those returned. As of now, we have managed to return home 517 children illegally displaced or deported by Russia. When I say "we", I mean the state of Ukraine. With all due respect to those volunteers who are involved in the return of Ukrainian children, the state and the relevant authorities are primarily responsible for this. This is a large team that includes representatives of NGOs, civil society, and various volunteers - not only Ukrainians, but also from all over the world. We have examples of volunteers from Estonia and Belgium helping us. Many of them continue to help us.
But there is a part of the state in every return. Even if it is publicly done by a non-governmental organisation. You see, the return of Ukrainian children is not only about physically taking a Ukrainian child from the territory of the Russian Federation and bringing him or her to Ukraine. No. It is also an information campaign, collection of evidence, volunteer assistance in financing. It also includes speeches at various international venues. On Friday, I spoke in Paris at the Committee on the Protection of Ukrainian Children at the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. I was accompanied by representatives of NGOs, government agencies and executive authorities.
- This is exactly what my next question is about - how does the world react to this? To these tens of thousands of stolen Ukrainian children? You have already partially mentioned the sluggish reaction of the UN, but how do other organisations that deal with this professionally react? Have you seen any interest in actively working to return Ukrainian children? Or is there fatigue from our war here too?
- I would like to tell everyone that I am not tired. The issue of deportation of Ukrainian children is the number one issue in the world. At least what I see gives me the opportunity to say so. Yes, I don't see any specific initiatives - we are ready to do one, two or three things. But at least organising platforms and raising this issue, raising it at the highest level, is a desire I see in the world.
- What do psychologists tell you about the children who were brought back here? Because the brainwashing there was very serious.
- In this regard, we are doing well. All returned children identify themselves as Ukrainians. But at the same time, a large number of them need psychological rehabilitation.
- There is a well-known Peace Formula of President Zelenskyy. Its fourth point is the return of children, civilians and prisoners of war. These tasks, among others, are your responsibility. Tell us, has this formalisation into a specific point of a specific formula accelerated your work with peace partners? Because the Ombudsman is one thing. But when it is a part of the President's formula, and it is also promoted globally, it is immediately a different level of contact.
- Let's put it this way. What do I like about this Formula? The fact that it is really formalised. That is, we understand that this is our plan for how we return people and territories. How we return peace to our country.
- You share this plan with your partners, and they can immediately see how they can help.
- Yes. When I was offered to deal with point 4, I certainly understood that this was one of the most difficult points. Because relatives are demanding the return of people right now. In general, there are a lot of problems and obstacles in this area. But on the other hand, this is a point that shows our goal. That is, we are fighting for people. Our task is to return absolutely everyone. It is clear that there is a complicated history of various communications, but in my opinion, when you understand the plan for yourself - where and how you are moving - you work out step by step every day what you need to do to ensure that point four is fulfilled. And on the one hand, this gives you an additional burden, but on the other hand, it structures your work.
- There are even more frightening figures from the Ombudsman's Office - as of November, we have 167,200 destroyed or damaged houses. 3,215 destroyed or damaged educational institutions. 1,668 destroyed or damaged healthcare facilities. It is clear that these recorded facts should become the evidence base for the International Criminal Court. Who is playing a leading role here?
- In terms of communication with international law enforcement and judicial authorities, the Prosecutor General's Office and the Prosecutor General of Ukraine personally.
- And in terms of collecting information?
- There are a lot of bodies working here. The main block is still law enforcement, and the Prosecutor General plays a key role there. The other block, documenting crimes, is carried out by both civil society and international organisations, such as the UN Permanent Monitoring Mission.
All information is concentrated in one place. It is sent to us, and we summarise it. We pass some of it on to the Prosecutor General's Office, and we publish another part of our work in the form of monthly briefs on violations of the rights of our people on the territory of Ukraine, including the temporarily occupied territory. And every month, more than 500 partners around the world receive this report from my institution and me personally. All the ombudsmen of the world, and all the heads of national human rights institutions.
- Can you single out the countries that help us more than others in this regard?
- If I name you some countries, others will be offended (smiles - E.K.). I divide all countries into three categories.
- Let's take it one step at a time.
- The first is the countries that help us in all areas and take the initiative to help Ukraine. A striking example is the United States of America, the United Kingdom, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and I could go on and on.
The second category of countries is those that are ready to help us in some ways and not in others. For example, Qatar is ready to help us return Ukrainian children. But we understand that Qatar will never condemn the Russians, provide military assistance, or vote for any sanctions.
And the third category of countries is those that do not want to help us or will not help us, because they are already helping the Russians and, unfortunately, are playing along with the Russian Federation. Vivid examples are Belarus, Iran, and North Korea. Unfortunately, I can even include China in this category somewhere. With all due respect. I hope that they will at least return to the issue of returning Ukrainian children. But as of now, I don't see any such initiative from them.
- And which global organisations are most useful for us? I take it that there is no great efficiency factor from the specialised structures - the UN and especially, God forbid, the International Committee of the Red Cross?
- Some United Nations agencies are doing a good job. For example, I really like the way UNICEF works. The specific Children's Fund helps with a lot of funding. And not only in Ukraine, but also for Ukrainian children in Poland, Turkey, and various European countries.
And there is no serious help from the system itself. Is that why I criticise the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross? Because their main mandate is to prevent aggression from happening. And the second is a quick response to such human rights violations in the world that occur. And do you know what has become for me a vivid example of cynicism towards our citizens on the part of these institutions?
- No, tell us.
- Celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 10 December is 75 years ago this year. Everyone celebrated. There were various receptions in Geneva and New York. Everyone was talking about it, rejoicing: how good it is that such a system exists! And next to all the representatives was the representative of the Russian Federation. Right next to them! At all the receptions! Don't you think this is the greatest cynicism? I think so, and at the "Freedom or Fear" conference we organised in Kyiv this year, I said outright that as of now, this is a dead document. No matter how my words may sound, a document that does not have an effective mechanism for responding to human rights violations remains just a piece of paper. And the representatives of the Russian Federation openly treat it that way. But then they should either be limited or excluded from the circle of countries that have decided for themselves that this is not just a piece of paper, but a charter by which we live. For me, the algorithm is very simple: there are international obligations that we have agreed upon, and we all live by these rules. If one of us does not live by these rules, then we all have to put pressure on him. For this purpose, there are economic sanctions, diplomatic restrictions, direct military assistance - specific mechanisms for a country to come back and say: okay, we were wrong, we are coming back and fulfilling all our obligations again. Or we simply throw them out of this circle of countries that are members of an international organisation.
What have we done as ombudsmen? When I took up this position, the first thing I did was to inform my colleagues. I simply gave them food for thought: you all say that Russia does not protect human rights, but violates them in Ukraine. Then what are the representatives of the Russian Federation doing next to us?
- And what do your colleagues say?
- Expelled. The representatives of the Russian Federation have been expelled or suspended from all international associations of ombudsmen and have been deprived of their membership and status.
- At the same time, I have a strong feeling that if we had not demanded the exemption, the Russians would have continued to sit there. And they would have been smiling defiantly.
- No one wants to change their history. It is much better to say that you are wrong, but continue to meet and sit at the same table.
- You are wrong and we are concerned, we are working on it.
- Yes. And that's it. I say: we need to go further, further, further. One of my arguments was that when you invite them, you create a platform for them to promote their narratives. They are poisoning not only our society (our society is already at war with them), but they continue to poison your society. You do not restrict them. So expect to hear Russian narratives on Russia Today that when Russian speakers are harassed across Europe tomorrow, Russian tanks will come to defend them. Do you want that? No? Then show that you don't want to put up with it.
- Going back to your classification of countries, what category is Hungary in for you?
- The second. Despite all our problematic issues with Hungary and the fact that Hungary, unfortunately, plays along with the Russian Federation in many ways, I would put this country in the second category. At least as of now, I continue to communicate with the Hungarian ombudsman. And I hope that he will come to Ukraine, and I will go to Hungary. At least we are now in communication about such mutual visits.
- I mentioned the terrible figures of thousands of houses destroyed and damaged by the enemy. Tell me, does the International Criminal Court require any complicated verification procedure for these objects? Are photos and testimonies enough? After all, we need all the information about Russia's crimes to be presented to the court. I understand that your new regional offices are dealing with this.
- This is a question primarily for the Prosecutor General's Office. We are doing our job. I believe that we not only can, but must take photos of all the houses and interview every citizen. My regional representatives are doing this, among other things. When there is a shelling in a region, my Representative is always there. Half an hour later, two hours later, maybe even the next day - there were different cases. But we are always there. We record human rights violations.
- Because I am sure that the Russians have already mobilised their lawyers and are preparing to challenge all our arguments in international courts.
- And I always emphasise that no one has cancelled our homework. We have to do our job professionally here in Ukraine. We have to prepare all the facts so that the Russians have no arguments to break down our evidence in international courts...
- Among other things, the Ombudsman's Office also deals with the crucial issue of human rights protection in the defence sector. That is, the rights of servicemen, prisoners of war and their families. Do you personally support the creation of a military ombudsman?
- This position actually exists. See how the system is structured. In different countries, there are different institutions that protect individual rights: the military ombudsman, the non-discrimination ombudsman, and the protection of information rights. In Ukraine, we have only one institution: the Parliamentary Commissioner for Human Rights. This is not a unique system; there are similar systems in the world: Georgia, Croatia, and many others. There is one Ombudsman appointed by the parliament. He is the head of an independent institution, and it is he who appoints his Representatives in the areas. That is, my Representative in the security and defence sector is no different in terms of powers, for example, from the military ombudsman of Norway. He also inspects military units, receives appeals, deals with them, everything is the same.
- I sense that you would like this area to remain within your remit.
- In fact, we have it. That is, if you want to get a real independent body, you need to amend the Constitution, pass a separate law, and get separate funding for it. Every time I hear such an initiative, I say: can we change the Constitution now under martial law? No, we can't. So let's close this theoretical part right away and move on to practice. As of now, I have 33 people working in this area. By the end of the year, we will have 17,000 appeals for the protection of human rights in the security and defence sector. So I need 100 people to work in this department, not 33, and we will do more work. But when I come in, the issue of funding always arises, which is not available. That is, you cannot hire additional people, and therefore you cannot do your job 100%.
We turn to international organisations to keep the situation under control. Yes, I have excellent relations in all areas with international organisations that help us through various charitable projects. But this is not enough. The state has to do it.
- Finally, I would like to ask about the information security of your institution. Everyone already knows about the bugs in Zaluzhnyi's office. How regularly is your office checked on this line? After all, many people would be interested in getting information from this office.
- Yes, I'm sure this information is extremely interesting, especially for the Russians. They are checking us. And now, after the latest incident, we will take this monitoring even more seriously.
Yevhen Kuzmenko, Censor.NET
Photo: Office of the Ombudsman
