"Fraudsters see post on social media that person is looking for missing soldier and take advantage of it" Commissioner for Missing Persons Artur Dobroserdov
How to find a soldier who does not get in touch? What should you do if unknown people respond to your post on social media and blackmail you into creating unbearable conditions for your son or husband in captivity? What to do if you cannot find your friends who lived in the house that was hit by a Russian missile? Is it possible to find children in Russia who were forcibly taken there and their surname changed?
These and other questions were answered in an interview with Censor.NET by the Commissioner for Persons Missing in Special Circumstances, Artur Dobroserdov.
"WE HAVE SITUATIONS WHERE EXPERTS HAVE IDENTIFIED WHOSE BODY IT IS, BUT THE RELATIVES REFUSE TO TAKE IT BACK"
-The latest massive rocket attack in Kyiv damaged a five-storey building in a residential area, the Okhmatdyt children's hospital and other civilian infrastructure. People were trapped in the rubble. If a person is not found in such situations, is he or she recognised as missing?
- The law defines a missing person under special circumstances as someone who has disappeared in connection with an armed conflict, hostilities, or the temporary occupation of a part of the territory. That is, you are talking about situations where a person may be declared missing in connection with an armed conflict or hostilities. In such situations, rescue services, the National Police and the Security Service of Ukraine are the first to start working. These institutions have an understanding of who could be in the destroyed buildings. For example, which patients were in which buildings, which doctors worked in which department. Lists of people to look for are being compiled.
For us, the decisive stage is when the search and rescue operations are announced as complete. After that, we receive information from the police about who is likely to be missing and who has been found. To date, we have no information that anyone is missing after the missile attack that day.
- Hospitals are clear. But what about residential buildings? No one knows for sure who could have been there at the time of the shelling. How is this checked?
- Relatives file statements with the police. Although, of course, it is possible that the person is alone and there is no one to contact about him or her. And after the search and rescue operations are completed, a body is found that no one can identify, then this information will be sent to our Office (the Commissioner's Secretariat), and we will further coordinate the work of law enforcement agencies and expert institutions to establish who it is.
But situations where someone cannot be identified for a long time are exceptions. Or someone believes that a loved one could have been in a destroyed building and ended up under the rubble, but they are never found and do not get in touch. As a rule, after some time, the person is found anyway. Either they get in touch themselves, or the body is identified and their identity is established.
- If a person has no relatives, but has friends who know that they lived in the house that was hit by a Russian missile, what should they do? Can they go to the police in this situation?
- Yes, you need to call 102 and explain that a person you know lived in the house, but they are not answering the phone and you don't know what happened to them. This information is recorded, as well as the details of the person who called. All of this is passed on to the police unit working at the scene. They immediately start checking the databases to see if there is any data on this person. They pull his or her photo from the databases. They may also ask the person who called the police to upload photos that are relevant to date. Then, during the search, the police will interview the neighbours to find out if anyone saw the person at the time the shelling started, the explosion occurred or before that. It may also be that the person left the phone behind, went outside, and at that time the rocket was "arriving", and therefore he or she cannot get in touch with his or her friends.
- Are there cases when people are reported missing long after rocket attacks?
- The last story that took us a long time to investigate was the rocket attack on a shopping centre in Kremenchuk. Due to the use of weapons with extremely high destructive power, it was difficult to identify the bodies. Large-scale thermal effects further complicate the examination and identification process in general.
- What is your assessment of the current situation with the number of persons missing under special circumstances? How many such people are currently in the register?
- The register has a section on 'Unidentified bodies (remains)' and a section on 'Missing persons'. The latter is formed from applications. That is, someone is looking for a person who has gone missing under special circumstances and submits a request to the law enforcement agencies. These can be the person's family and friends, the commander of a unit, people who worked or served with the person.
The register contains 48,000 missing persons under special circumstances. And another 2,000 are data on bodies that experts are currently working with. The bodies are delivered from the front line, by repatriation - when the bodies of our defenders are transferred from the enemy, and we transfer the bodies of the occupiers, respectively. Since many bodies arrive in a very difficult to identify condition, this process takes some time. Therefore, this figure is dynamic, it is constantly changing.
For example, 300 bodies were identified in a month through a lengthy forensic examination. Another repatriation took place, more than 200 more bodies were delivered, and work is starting again.
- How many deaths of people reported missing have been established? How many have been found?
- Seven thousand are already terminated accounts. They are terminated in two cases. The first is when a person has been found alive, contacted, and is on the territory of Ukraine or some other country with which we have international legal agreements in force. And more than 3,800 are identified bodies. That is, people were reported missing, then investigations and examinations were carried out, and we realised who they were.
Today we have 41,000 people on the wanted list. These are military and civilians, as well as stateless persons who lived in Ukraine and ended up in the occupied territories, and citizens of other countries who were here legally.
- Are you mostly asked to search for civilians or military?
- Mostly, relatives of military personnel apply, because they know how to act in cases where a serviceman has gone missing. In addition, military families communicate quite closely with each other and exchange information quickly. They tend to unite around a certain location and a certain period of time. For example, the defence of Bakhmut, Mariupol. Or by military units.
It all starts when the family receives a notice that the soldier has disappeared. Then the family begins to act. First, they need to contact the police, then submit information to the Office (the Secretariat of the Commissioner for Missing Persons), the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War, and the National Information Bureau, understanding all possible versions of what could have happened to him.
We need to find out whether he was taken prisoner, and to do this, we need to involve those institutions that can do this.
If he is dead, then we need to collect as much information as possible about the location where the body may be. And then the mechanisms are activated to retrieve the body from the battlefield, or it becomes clear that we need to wait until the area is de-occupied. Because search teams cannot be sent to the area of active hostilities. You cannot send a group of soldiers there to risk their lives. Therefore, we need to wait until the front line shifts a little bit and search operations can be carried out there or bodies can be exchanged between the parties. Currently, such exchanges take place twice a month.
- Do you also deal with this issue?
- The essence of our work is coordination. We understand which government agencies are responsible for which issues and cooperate with them. Our task is to collect all the information, find out the fate of a military or civilian, and distribute this information among the relevant institutions that are responsible for a particular issue.
As for the return of bodies, over the two years of full-scale war, 67 repatriations were carried out and more than 3,000 bodies were returned.
- How many more bodies of Mariupol defenders are to be returned? Because mothers are still saying they are waiting for it. Or do you have no such information?
- We have data on how many are missing, how many are confirmed to be in captivity and data on how many are likely to have died. There is no information on how many bodies are yet to be returned.
- Are there situations when relatives think that a soldier is dead, and then it turns out that he is in captivity? Or, on the contrary, do they hope to the last that he is alive against all odds?
- They do. But it also happens vice versa. In one of the repatriation cases, they began to examine the bodies and it turned out that the set of one of the skeletons was incomplete and it was clear that some bones belonged to different bodies. And one bone in the leg had a DNA match with the person who was looking for this soldier. But the absence of a single bone from a person does not mean that he or she is dead. And everyone hoped that the soldier was still alive. But unfortunately, the rest of the bones were found in another bag that was handed over. And the fact of his death was confirmed.
We also have situations where the experts have identified the body, but the relatives refuse to take it back because they still cannot believe that he is dead. There are also those who say they do not trust law enforcement agencies or national expert institutions and want to involve international organisations. Even though the expert opinion is not the responsibility of a person, but of a computer. A person simply ensures that the biological material is properly collected and processed, placed where it is needed. But when the result is 99.9%, there is nothing to doubt.
- I myself had hoped for the return of one of the Mariupol defenders, about whom I wrote an article, for quite a long time, until his mother received a certificate that he had been killed. So I understand how scary it is for people to lose hope.
- Now, to resolve some issues related to everyday life, with reimbursement for repairs to damaged housing, people have to go to court to get a decision that the soldier is declared missing. At the same time, they turn to us and ask: "And if we get such a decision, will they continue to search for him?". We explain that the search will continue until we find him or he returns.
We have some employees who are searching Russian Telegram and YouTube channels. They post a lot of videos with prisoners of war of various kinds, and our task is to find confirmation that the soldier is alive and that he is in captivity.
The guys and girls decompose the video into frames, clean the image, and then use special software to find out who is in it. Because sometimes photos and videos are signed, and sometimes there are no signatures. Then they call the soldier's family and friends, send them the photos and videos, and ask them to say whether it is him or not. This is also emotionally difficult, because at first people are happy that he is alive, but then they realise what awaits him next and react accordingly.
- From these videos, it becomes clear that the person is in captivity. Who then determines where exactly? At this stage, does the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War get involved?
- And the Security Service of Ukraine. We exchange this information. As well as in cases when someone is returned from captivity. They tell us where they were held, with whom, who else from the civilian or military they saw, what call signs they heard. As you can imagine, there can be many different people with the same call sign. Nevertheless, all the information is carefully recorded and worked with. And from the video, you can roughly understand where this or that person is, and then find out what's wrong with them. For example, one of the most recent cases. I received a report: "We have found a video of a military man, he is on our wanted list. The video shows that he is in captivity, approximately there", and a day later they come in and say: "There was the last repatriation and he was recognised. It's just that the Russians recorded this video earlier and now they have posted it." They were forcing this soldier to sing "Victory Day", so they posted the video in May.
"WE MOSTLY FIND CIVILIANS THROUGH FAKE TRIALS ORGANISED BY RUSSIANS"
- You said that relatives would like to know where exactly the soldier disappeared. How will they know this? No one gives the coordinates to their relatives when a soldier goes on a combat mission.
- This is the information that a military unit must provide them if a soldier goes missing. The commander is responsible and knows how many are killed, how many are missing, how many are wounded. Records are kept and he has information on each soldier. When an internal investigation is conducted, it describes the circumstances and where the soldier disappeared.
In addition, we understand that we are now in a modern war and almost all units are equipped with drones. And in many cases, they raise drones and try to record the exact location of the body. And if they can take the body, they do. Even if active hostilities make it impossible to take the body, the location is still recorded.
Mothers, sisters, wives can work so closely with military units that they have both drone video and precise coordinates.
- Sometimes I see announcements on social media about soldiers who are being searched for by their families. Is this an effective way?
- People really do post a lot of information with such requests in various public spaces. As for the effectiveness, they later tell us that some people call them, say that a soldier is allegedly in captivity, and ask for money for information. The fraudsters see a post on social media that a person is looking for a missing soldier, understand the psycho-emotional state of the person and take advantage of it. They collect information from other open sources, then prepare their own version of events and call the author of the post. For example, they say that the soldier is in captivity and is allegedly in serious condition and needs surgery. Then they say the amount of money that the soldier's family should transfer to a bank card. They say they will do nothing until they receive the money. And, unfortunately, many families have fallen victim to such scams.
- Are they just transferring money and not communicating with law enforcement?
- We always say: communicate, give information to the police, the SSU. And now the families of the military mostly do this, but there are also many examples of military families falling victim to such fraudsters. It is psychologically difficult not to use every opportunity. Because even if you believe by 1% that you can help your son or husband, you will do it. And then you realise that you have become a victim of deception.
Another development may be a situation where representatives of the Russian side try to contact a person for some kind of intelligence activities using blackmail. They frighten people by saying that they will create unbearable conditions for the military in captivity if their relatives do not do what they say. They can demand anything. For example, they say to shoot and upload a video. We were told that they are also campaigning to go to the territory of the Russian Federation, to the temporarily occupied territory. They say that if you want to help, come and we will decide how to release him. But I have never heard a single story that ended well when such negotiations begin.
Some of the relatives of the missing soldiers were agitated by the Russians to make videos justifying Russian aggression.
It is often said that some public actions should be held near the buildings they point to. The emphasis is on the fact that the Ukrainian military allegedly organises defence in an illiterate manner or is leading soldiers to the "slaughter". In other words, they are trying to promote the IPSO through a certain category of people and create the media image the enemy needs.
- Were there those who agreed to go to the occupied territories?
- There are some who can be seen on the Internet. They allegedly released their husbands because they began to justify the aggression. But in fact, we are not aware of any real cases where such actions have brought a positive result.
- What kind of communication is there with families looking for soldiers or waiting for them to be released from captivity, so that they can consult and avoid doing this? Are they one-on-one with their worries and fears for their loved ones?
- I think that they often come to the conclusion that they are left alone with their misfortune. Although communication is the number one issue and, of course, neither we nor other bodies involved in the accounting and search for missing persons leave these families without attention. The Coordination Headquarters has a large team responsible for coordination, and the SSU Joint Centre has a team responsible for communication. The police are currently setting up unified centres for the search for missing persons. There will also be a big emphasis on communication. So that you can contact them at any time and tell them that you have received a call, received an offer, or that someone in a group is agitating to go to Russia, and ask them how to behave.
We also communicate with each other on a daily basis, exchanging information.
Currently, the biggest problem is that there is a wall on the other side, through which no information passes. There is no way to hold any negotiations, to get any information from the source.
- Are people who agree to distribute Russian IPSO even to save someone close to them liable under the law?
- I think that in many cases they don't even realise what they are doing.
- In legal terms, not in the language of compassion.
- In order to bring a person to justice, it must be proved that they have deliberately done something. But no one calls anyone and says directly: "I am an officer of Russian intelligence, I am giving you a task and you have to do it". People are told in a veiled way. But, of course, when a person is told to take a photo or video of an object and send it to a certain address, he or she clearly understands what it means. If people do this, such actions will be regarded as collaboration with the enemy and will be subject to criminal liability.
- How long does it take to go to the police with a report of a missing soldier?
- The police will accept the application on the first day. The only thing they may ask is whether the person has contacted his commander or his comrades. Because there may be a situation where the soldier is fine, but there is no connection in the combat zone. In the military, families usually go to the police when they receive a notification from a military unit.
- Are there any separate organisations or groups of volunteers that help relatives search for missing civilians?
- In addition to civilians, there are also military personnel in combat zones. And, firstly, they should not be disturbed. Secondly, we need to take into account the security factor, and we don't want any strange people there. Delivering medicine, food, or taking someone out is one thing. But it is definitely not worth sending people there who, under the pretext that someone is wanted, could create some problems for our military.
If someone is worried about their relatives, they can contact the police. A police officer from the "White Angel" unit, who is involved in evacuation, can visit the home of a person who has lost contact with them to find out if they are there or have left.
- What is the status of people who are forcibly taken to Russia?
- These are Ukrainian citizens who have been deported or forcibly displaced. The Ministry of Reintegration has a register where information about civilians, including children, who are being taken away is accumulated. Data is collected step by step on the settlement from which people were taken, the composition of their families, and whether they were moved to the Russian Federation or to another settlement in the occupied territory.
- Are children mostly reported missing or deported?
- There are many more deportees and displaced persons than missing persons. There are less than two thousand children missing today. Most of them are orphans or children deprived of parental care.
When a large area was occupied during the first stage of the full-scale invasion, in some regions children were evacuated, and in some regions they were not. Eventually, they were taken to the territory of the Russian Federation. The processes of adoption and redistribution of these children to different institutions began.
But we are able to obtain information about them, despite the fact that their names and dates of birth are changed.
- It is very difficult.
- The Russians are trying to falsify all the data so that the child completely loses his or her identity. So that over time they forget who they are and where they come from. A lot of money is invested in this.
In Russian orphanages, such children are on a special account, and they spend a lot of time working with these children, instilling in their minds that they are not Ukrainians, but Russians, and that what happened to them before should be forgotten.
- Should we search for civilians who disappeared in the combat zone or in the occupied territories through social media?
- Civilians are often prosecuted for spurious reasons, and information from the trials is published in the media. That is why we mostly find civilians through fake trials organised by the Russians. This makes it possible to understand where they are and what is happening to them.
- How many journalists are currently in the register of those who went missing under special circumstances?
- Currently, 11 journalists are on the register. We have also sent the police information on 23 more. The police are currently processing and verifying the information provided, and once completed, appropriate decisions will be made.
- If a person has lost his or her memory as a result of an injury sustained in the combat zone and is in a military hospital or a civilian hospital, should the medical staff inform the police, and should the police pass the information on to you?
- Such information usually does not have time to reach the register, because the administration must inform the police. The police go to the place and talk to the person. Each of us has identifying features - at least a face and fingerprints. And with a high degree of probability, the police will find out who it is.
- What rights do families of missing persons have in special circumstances?
- The law clearly defines the rights of the missing person. He has the right to be searched for effectively. For the period when he is considered missing under special circumstances, he retains his position at his place of service and average monthly salary. This applies to military and civil servants. The salary of a military man is paid to his family. In addition, the property of a missing person under special circumstances may be placed under court guardianship.
We are also currently working on exchanging information with the Pension Fund. The key idea behind this exchange is to provide employers with information that their employees are missing under special circumstances. This information will be displayed in the employer's personal account on the Pension Fund's electronic services web portal.
Tetiana Bodnia, Censor.NET
