Oleksii Sokil: "When it is shouted that military needs rehabilitation, I say: society needs it, which must be taught to accept veterans and people with disabilities"
Oleksii Sokil is a veteran of the Russian-Ukrainian war. He started his military career as a volunteer fighter in 2014. He was a paramedic and an anti-tank platoon commander. In the summer of 2016, near Marinka, he was seriously wounded - a bullet went through his heart. After long treatment and difficult rehabilitation, he decided to become a palliative care chaplain for war veterans.
I was lucky enough to catch Oleksii in Kyiv and record this interview. We spoke in the Volodymyrska Hirka park. It was here that our hero was on the first day of Russia's full-scale invasion - February 24, 2022.
-"For me, this place is memorable for a certain sense of ambivalence," he recalls. - "We saw that many people were in a state of confusion. But there were also those who knew what to do, where to go, and why. These were, first of all, war veterans - we had certain things planned. I was aware of what was happening. Not that I was priming for but I could accept it, because I realized that this had to happen eventually. A month before the full-scale invasion, my friend, photographer and journalist Aleks Zakletskyi and I met with foreign journalists. We gave them interviews and told them what could happen, and helped them to communicate with those effective people who were ready and willing to defend the country. We had one of these meetings with the French scheduled for February 24. When it all started, we did not cancel it. We realized that the world needed to see it. Knowing the panorama of Kyiv (from here you can see the Left Bank of the capital. - O.M.), we brought them here. Here they could see Hostomel, where the battle was going on - they saw helicopters, explosions. Journalists were filming and broadcasting, and we were covering them. I am sure it was important. A certain part of people abroad saw and got the appropriate emotions. They watched live - not filmed by someone else, but shown by their own journalists. I think it worked. Some people were worried, while others started to act and help."
- How did these French journalists react to what they were seeing and filming? Were they scared?
- It was a shock for them, even though they had the relevant experience - they had previously been to hot spots in the world, including Syria. They saw the bombing, how settlements were being destroyed...
- By the way, it was Russia who did the same thing...
- Yes, the same enemy. I am very grateful to these journalists. They showed themselves to be professionals and heroic. Indeed, it was scary and dangerous - we were in the center, where anything could hit at any time. So they did a great job! Because in the first minutes, what is the first reaction? What to do, where to run? And when you are busy doing something, you get inner peace. I always say to everyone: if you are very worried and nervous about something, start cleaning up your apartment, house, dugout - keep yourself busy! If you put things in order, you will put things in order in your head. That's it!
That's how we spent the first half of the day. In the afternoon, we met with the commander and our comrades in arms and established where we were, what and how.
- And where have you been?
- You see, for me, a person who was deregistered and completely discharged due to disability, it was unrealistic for me to try to break through to the army. Why is that? At that time, my father-in-law was a deputy military commissar in one of the capital's military commissariats. I had talked to him before that. He explained to me: "No one will take the responsibility to register you officially, because you have restrictions that mean you cannot hold combat positions." So I talked to my comrade-in-arms, who was in charge of a certain area at the time. He gave me the opportunity to be in one of the support units. I did what I was good at. I used to run my own business, so I knew how to organize logistics. Plus, I spent three years in the army, both as a fighter and as a commander. So I knew what to do. I'm happy that I lived the first few months of the full-scale invasion this way. Because I had my comrades-in-arms with whom we fought together in 2014 by my side. These are the guys who defended Kyiv in a very specific way, performing tasks that we cannot talk about publicly yet. The only thing I can say is that they are the ones who damaged the Katsaps' communications, destroyed their warehouses in the rear and did everything to cut off the troops that came close to Kyiv. I am happy that I had the opportunity to be involved in this. We transported equipment to them, repaired and refueled it, delivered ammunition and food. It was difficult. I thank God for his constant support. He gave me people like me who were with me 24/7. I am grateful to my friends and volunteers who did not go into shells, did not run away, but helped me. I am grateful to the military, the Security Service, the Defense Forces - to everyone! Everyone was doing a common job at the time.
- Indeed, there was such a powerful unity then...
- It was similar to the unity I saw in the East in 2014. Unfortunately, unity is not a typical behavior for Ukrainians. But when it gets hot, first of all, they remember who they are. They stop dividing by skin color, religion, gender, wealth and status. In difficult situations, everyone unites. And it's great, it's great. I always say: we must all be together before God. We are all the same before him - there are no worse or better. The same is true for Ukraine. But you have to know your history, understand what country you live in, what you do and why. Even this conversation we are having in five minutes will be history. Just like our lives in general. So let's make sure that this story is not an obituary, and that our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren are proud of us, and most importantly, have the foundation and unbreakable granite that this is our country, a God-given land, the right to which we have won...
- And we continue to fight.
- That's right! We are now "washing ourselves" with blood, giving up the best and losing the most valuable. It hurts and burns for us. So let's evaluate it, draw conclusions and move forward together. Of course, I may not like some people either, like Mykola or Vasyl. But the question is different: today they are Ukrainians, close to me. I would like them to remain so even after the victory. I am in no way going to unite with the enemy, forgive and pardon them. Yes, as a priest and chaplain, I have to accept and love everyone. However, forgiveness has several steps before it: a person must realize what he or she has done, ask for forgiveness, and atone for his or her guilt - pay for it, and then, perhaps, forgiveness will come. But this is a long way from start to finish.
- I don't think the Russians are capable of that.
- That's what I'm talking about! When I hear: "We need to find peace with them, to negotiate," I answer: "Excuse me, but where is the fake? Apart from the pain, grief, and horror that they are causing, they are not going to atone for it. They must be eliminated! They have to disappear, like something that does not belong on this planet." They say: "That's not Christian!" "Then you do not know Christian values and do not understand what we are talking about. Our sacred duty is to protect our neighbor and the land God gave us. They attacked, so we have to destroy them by any means available or unavailable." Our unity should be around this. Of course, all people are different, everyone has their own opinion. I support this. We must be free. This freedom is worth fighting for, not dying for. Why did the enemy come to eliminate us? Not because they want our land and resources. It's like a bonus for them - they need to loot. But first and foremost, they want to destroy our will and Ukrainian nature. For them, we are the little light that can set their whole country on fire. Of course, they are a swamp, darkness and horror. But even there, sooner or later, changes can happen. As we remember: "Russian rebellion is senseless and merciless". Although I'm not talking about rebellion here, I'm talking about change. If you look back at history, they do occasionally have a desire for some kind of freedom. The fact that they later "drowned everything in blood" is another matter. But the process itself is possible. Their government is terrified of it. Ukrainians have the will, but they often do not appreciate it. And this is the feature that makes us different from the enemy, which we have shown since 2014: don't touch us, we will fight, we will do everything possible to destroy you. And those who are now trying to divide and separate us should be beaten on the hands. As well as those who shut their mouths and hide the truth. It must exist, no matter how painful and difficult it is. Because when you know the truth, you understand what is happening to you, you don't lose trust. It is very difficult in war when there is no truth. For example, when a commander does not tell the truth to a soldier. You don't have to tell him everything in full, but you don't have to lie to him and tell him things that won't happen. When a fighter goes to a position, he is told: "You'll be there for three days," and a month passes, will he trust them later?
- No.
- It won't. And if the commander honestly says: "There is a certain corridor, from three days to a month, because the situation is difficult," it is better. Some people say that in this case, the soldiers will refuse. Listen, they may not want to go for three days either. The question is different: trust, truth, and maintaining this unity in simple things. And this is in everything in our lives. Tell the truth, whatever it is, or keep quiet, but don't lie! If you can't say everything, then don't say it and don't destroy trust! Everyone has moments when they cannot tell the whole truth. In such cases, I directly admit it. It's the same with the secret of confession: I know, but I won't tell, because I took a vow. If a fighter came to me and said that he needed to confess, I would talk to him, but it would remain between the person who told me, me and God. I have no right to carry that on because it was not said to me! This is extremely important. It's the same in life - we have to be guided by certain values. We have them. The problem is that people don't want to turn around. In fact, sometimes it is enough to turn to the right or left. Because the answers are all around us. I tell all the soldiers: "Prayer is important. It is communication with God. In prayer, you can ask, ask, thank. But you have to understand that now the clouds will not open, God will not look out and tell you what and how. Although it is real! But it has to be achieved. There are examples in human history - prophets. Those to whom it was given. My point is that you do not wait for an answer from there, but take it, because it is near you. The answer is people. Those whom God gives you. Are you looking for help? Make it known! Sometimes you need to say this not only to God but also to the people around you."
- Many people find it difficult to ask for help.
- Indeed, it is difficult. But then I ask: "Do you want to survive? Do you want to win? If yes, then take a step - speak up! Don't be afraid!" Yes, sometimes you get it hot and strong for your word. But also for action! However, you fight, you go forward, having a goal: to survive and win, to win and survive. So you appeal to those who are close to you. When you do an honest, right and sacred thing, God will give you everything! I'm not afraid to talk about it, because I know from experience. The only thing is not to keep everything for yourself, do not forget to share. Even with joy, happiness, and pain. Share and give. When we are genuine, we receive genuineness in return. Someone will say: "I'm about to open my soul, and they don't care." But if your soul is pure, real, and burning, then no. Have you ever tried to spit on fire?
- It is unlikely to work.
- Do you understand? When your soul is burning, you try to spit it out - it won't work!
- What do the military most often apply to you with?
- They often ask questions. How did you get there, how did you achieve it, how did you realize it? They also often come up to me to tell me about theirs. Anything. He saw in me someone who listens and hears, goes and speaks. Sometimes he tells me things that are not mine. But I listen and try to realize why it is being said to me. After all, God gave it to me as a certain answer to my questions. Perhaps this is how I practice my acceptance or patience. I am grateful for any person in my life. The guys also talk about what happened to them during the battle and share their feelings afterwards. I usually say, first, it is not a sin to be afraid. As the song says: "It is a sin to betray your own". Secondly, it is always scarier to go into the second battle than the first. Because you already have a certain knowledge. From my own experience, I would say that the main thing here is not to speak in clichés. A warrior feels authenticity. Someone who has gone through hell on earth becomes different. At these moments, I can only talk to them about what I have experienced and feel myself - share my experience. However, this is not always necessary. Sometimes a fighter just wants to get off his chest and does not need a dialog or comments. He needs you to listen to him, hug him, shake his hand and thank him. This is extremely important. Usually, a commander cannot give this. Because he has 40-200 or more. Yes, there are exceptions - those who communicate with soldiers at this level. But it is not necessary. You cannot demand this from commanders, because they have slightly different tasks. Neither can military psychologists. Firstly, there are very few of them in practice. Secondly, they should not be on the front line. A psychologist can be at decompression and recovery centers. So can representatives of moral and psychological support. Of course, you can try to have a heart-to-heart talk with them, but that's different. Therefore, there should be a chaplain nearby.
- Do the military often talk to you about death?
- Usually in stories about the death of a comrade in arms. In other words, they do not talk about death, but about the person they lost. They don't share the details of the death, but what the person was like. They can tell about their family and friends. They try to give this memory the opportunity to go on living, so that not only they know that there was such a hero. I periodically thought and remembered what I was talking about before I became a chaplain. In order to convey to the civilian population what war is, you don't voice statistics, you talk about a personality. You try to show what the price of this conditional peace in the rear is. As I said then, I hear the same thing from the soldiers today.
- Do commanders share their painful experiences? In particular, about the deaths of soldiers? A good friend of mine told me that it was morally harder for him to tell this to relatives.
- It is very difficult and painful. It is impossible to get used to it. In my life, I had an example of a real commander who not only informed the family about the death of a soldier, but also went to the burial and looked them in the eye. It is difficult. When a company commander was appointed in his battalion, he always warned them: "Know that you are responsible for them, and that you will report and go if anything happens. If you are ready, go!" This was before the full-scale invasion, but I remember it. I believe that today commanders should not go around burying soldiers. We are not in a war that would allow us to disrupt them from their positions. But they need to talk to their families. There must be contact. We must remain human and respect those who gave their lives and their loved ones. These are simple human and Christian values: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Your actions should be mirrored. That's it! Therefore, if you become a commander, take responsibility, declare that you can and do it, then please be open to relatives. Yes, they are very different. Someone may shout in your face that you are to blame for the death of a loved one. People experience loss in different ways. I emphasize another thing: you have to be prepared for the fact that after the victory you will see everyone, that you will be open for the rest of your life, both for your soldiers who survived and for the families of those who died. You have to be the one who will give the answer, say the word they want to hear. This is how it should be. If you take this position, you have to be ready for it. I am very grateful to those who were in my life. They will always remain my commanders in arms. I don't address them in any other way than 'my friend the commander'. Even to those who no longer hold this position. But I simply cannot do otherwise! And when my comrades in arms call me in the middle of the night and ask: "Comrade Commander, how are you? How is your health?", it gives me strength and inspiration. This is what I was talking about - you are open. I understand that this is very difficult, not everyone can do it. And not all officers can be commanders. But we have a new generation here. It's cool and great. The only thing I ask of my peers and those who are older is that you don't break them, don't take away their future. I also communicate with young people. The other day I was at the graduation of future officers at the KPI. I say the following words to them: "This is your Ukraine, your land. It is up to you to decide how to live. Not us". Someone said to me: "Why are you discharging yourself ? You are 46 years old. Are you already so old? Aren't you going to live anymore?" I answered: "No, I will live. But we did our duty - we did what we could: at some point, we stopped the enemy on Bankova Street during the Revolution of Dignity, then in the East and during the full-scale war. We do not stop, we continue to fight. I am not going to give up and wait for something. I will continue to fight. But today there are already those who are 20-plus who have a different worldview." So let's support them in this! Let's be real teachers and coaches - those who will advise them, but not force them to live the way we did. There should be no Soviet Union! Only will - real, intelligent and Ukrainian will. Young people must decide for themselves what Ukraine will be like. You know, I may not like it very much, because there will be different movement, speed, energy, and even words that I sometimes don't understand. But it will be Ukraine! In 20 years, I want the army to be incomprehensible to me, but ours, so that a new formation of commanders emerges who do not have all that old stuff. I don't want us to have a Japanese, German, or American army. We should not be monkeys. It is right to take someone's experience, transform it and do it in our own way. There should be a reasonable approach to everything. But for this to happen, we need to trust young people more.
- There are a lot of young people in the army now.
- Yes! I am happy that they are there. Although in general, our army is mostly 45-plus. But even among them there are young and bright minds who can, want and will. By the way, they see and perceive the world differently. As well as the war. They are ready to fight out of the box. And this is right. Because if we fight our enemy using Soviet methods, we will never defeat them. I am not a military expert. In no case will I give advice to commanders or brigadier generals. This is not my competence. I only express my thoughts, in which I may be wrong. But these are my feelings and experiences. Maybe someone sees it differently. In any case, the future belongs to young people. Time does not wait. Therefore, it is important not to burn the wings of young people on the way up. Of course, they make mistakes and by trial and error. So be there for them at that moment, not break them.
- Don't scold them?
- Sometimes you can scold them when you need to. But in such a way that he realizes what he has done and that this does not happen again. And not in the following way: they dismissed the UAV pilot because he crashed the drone, sent him to a mortar. I have seen this happen. This is how they punished a fighter, a bright and good man. This is not the way to do things.
- What about the military's faith? You can often hear that even ardent atheists begin to believe in God at zero line. Is this true?
- I do not agree with this. First, we need to understand what faith is. Second, we are all different. Everyone has their own worldview. Everyone believes in something: someone believes in a gun, someone believes in eternal love. It's up to each of us.
-Tell us, how did you become a chaplain in the first place? I understand that you made this decision after being seriously wounded...
- Yes. I saw the chaplains, talked to them, received support from them, so I made this decision for myself. Although the recovery process was very difficult for me. Do you know who helped me to get back on my feet after being wounded? People. Those who had already been through it, who believed in me, the priests and chaplains I mentioned. My life experience of how to survive and move on also played a role. I told my friends that in five years I would have this and that. Some of them were skeptical. But I knew how to act, I was looking for ways and was open. I spoke to people about my condition. I asked God for help, and he gave me people in return. Time has passed, and today I have even more than I voiced then. I tell all soldiers and war veterans that war is an accelerated life. There, things can happen in a day that you have not experienced in a year. Everything is changing so fast that experience is gained in such a way: you just have to keep up. The question is how you use it. It can be either negative or positive. Yes, I was wounded. But how do I feel about it? As a certain stage. Yes, it was painful and scary. However, it gave me strength and taught me how to continue my movement. I could have laid down, told them I couldn't do anything, and shouted: "You all owe me everything! Love me the way I am". But no! I will get everything for myself, I will find opportunities to move on, but please don't throw up roadblocks and understand that the law is on the side of war veterans. I really want everyone to be equal in front of it, and I want justice to work. This is important to me. I explain to the guys: "You are war veterans, you are protected by the law. You have opportunities. If you use them properly, you will have everything in life."
- Unfortunately, our laws are not always enforced.
- Who's stopping you from pursuing it? Not everyone is capable, right? And I was supported by those who were willing and able. They advised me, helped me, gave a hand. Look, before me, two of my comrades in arms were seriously injured and became disabled, but they were advised and went to university. They advised me to do the same. I said: "It's a lot of money!". It's free for combatants. I tried it and I succeeded! I finished my studies. I immediately went to obtain a master's degree because I liked it. All this time I was pestering my comrades in arms to get a higher education. If you can't move on with your legs, go with your mind and heart. It turns out that you took an example and gave it. It works. And when I graduated from university, I entered the Kyiv Orthodox Theological Academy and am already in my fourth year. Yes, I could have left the master's program back in 2022, but I didn't. By the way, I defended my thesis online in December at the point of indestructibility near the Verkhovna Rada, because there was no electricity in the city. I came there with a laptop and defended my thesis. I could have also quit my studies at the academy, but my classmates and I, while fighting, did not do so. This is an example of how to exercise your rights. I do not ask for or appropriate what is not mine. I take what the state gives me by law. I do not commit a crime. That's why I feel free and easy. I am ready to be an example and share my experience. Why am I talking about this? I'm 46 years old, and I'm about to get my third university degree. How cool would it be if those under 30, who have fought but do not have a university degree, came to study. Let them study and go to management programs so that they can become presidents, ministers, and deputies in the future. I will also run in the next elections. Because I understand that we have to act. I will fight for veterans, families of the fallen and soldiers. I am a person who has to do a specific job and not be scattered. And war veterans are my topic that hurts me because I went through it myself. This is forever. For me, there is no war veteran without an army. I believe that war veterans should not be thrown away, written off. They should be given the opportunity to return and be involved in the army. Abroad, there are military personnel at the base, as well as service personnel, most of whom are war veterans who were not thrown out on the street but given a chance to work, receive a decent salary, doing things they understand.
- Since we're talking about the law, I'll mention the fact that deputies cannot vote to ban the Moscow Patriarchate Church (we talked about this before the law was adopted - O.M.). How do you feel about this?
- This is great because in this way we can see who is a traitor. You have to see the silver lining in everything. Yes, now we can say that not making such a decision is a big minus. Indeed, it is very bad that we do not prohibit the functioning of the FSB seat in our country, do not destroy their agent network. But on the other hand, today there are those who support them, protect them, and do everything possible to keep them around. We have to draw conclusions. Sooner or later they will be banned. But along with all this, we will have to clean up those supporters.
- You are an optimist.
- Realist. When someone says that everything is bad, I answer: "Don't worry, it will get worse." The question is in your perception. I am a happy person: I opened my eyes in the morning and thanked God for that. You don't need much to be happy. The main thing is to realize it. I am alive. People say to me: "You have something to compare with. You survived death." And I don't want people to go through what I went through. Take advantage of my experience and be happy here and now. You don't need much. My happiness is based on simple things: I have the most important thing - the will. The will to choose, to believe. The will to live, to die, to love.
This is confirmed by my mother, wife, son, friends, comrades-in-arms and those who gave their lives for me, whom I will thank as long as I live. You know, after I was wounded, I had a question to God: "Why? For what?". It was difficult to understand that you had to stay on the football field where you were wounded and die there, but you survived with a bullet in your heart. It was probably the most difficult moment after being wounded and rehabilitated - realizing and accepting myself. At a certain point, I got the answer when I helped the wife of my comrade-in-arms who was very seriously wounded. He was in intensive care - in the same ward of Mechnikov Hospital where I used to be. In the middle of the night, I received a call from another comrade-in-arms who said: "Sokil, Valerii is seriously wounded. I'm in Kyiv now, getting his wife on the train. Meet me in the morning". I had 80 kilometers to go to Dnipro. I hardly slept that night. At four in the morning, I was on my feet. Although I was not in a very good condition before, I had strength from somewhere. I got ready and left. I met her and went to the hospital. I helped her for a week. All this time, I supported her, told her what would happen next, advised her what to look for, how to communicate. Then Valera was stabilized. They were going to take her to Kyiv to Shalimov on board, but she was not allowed to go because there were only doctors there. We got in the car and "flew" in the middle of the night. It was dark, wet snow. We talked all the time. When I was returning from the hospital, I realized that God was giving me strength. I felt that I needed more. I realized that I had to speak, to share my experience. I have been doing this for eight years. I repeat, I am a happy person. I always have someone to talk to - God, my mother, wife, child, comrades-in-arms, and even strangers on the street. When you see a person in a difficult situation, you need to approach, ask, and support them. There are times when a word saves a life. You say it to a person and save them from the wrong step they could have taken.
- This is a very relevant and deep topic now. I know of examples when soldiers committed suicide because of personal problems because there was no one nearby who could help and save them from this step...
- Unfortunately, in my life there are many people I was at war with who committed suicide. This is one of the driving levers to become a military chaplain for war veterans. I know of examples when such guys committed suicide because they could not cope with the state they were in after the war, after being wounded. It is not so much the wounded body that leads to this as the wounded soul. I set myself the goal of becoming someone to whom you can come, talk, and who will ride out. Yes, it is difficult and scary. I've heard it repeatedly: "It can overwhelm you". But if you are filled with good, evil will not enter you. If you fill a pitcher with stones, no matter how much water you pour in it, there will be stones in it. At the beginning of our conversation, we talked about the inner fire that cannot be spat out.
- To do this, you need to be a strong person.
- Ask God for strength - He will give it to you. Do a good deed - he will support you. At some point, you will even think that God does everything for you. Sometimes I have times when I have an important meeting and there is a traffic jam, but you get through it. Or how I had no way to get out of the East, and in the end I was brought directly to Kyiv. These are simple things. However, we should be grateful for them. And keep doing good deeds.
Returning to the topic of suicide, I will tell you this: unfortunately, we will not stop them. They have been, are and will be. It is a difficult and terrible companion of war when it kills at home. There are no deadlines - it can kill in a year or in five to ten years. That is why it is important to create opportunities and open doors so that every soldier can come in with any of their problems and pain, so that this soul knows that they will not be judged, will not be "disassembled into atoms," but will simply be accepted, poured a mug of warm tea or milk and given support and peace of mind. If someone thinks that suicide is committed by those who are lonely, they are mistaken. Very often, it is done by those who are in the middle of events. It would seem that their world is full. And this person could have needed support and peace of mind. Unfortunately, our society is mostly incapable of empathy and understanding. Society is ruthless - it will use you, "chew you up and spit you out". Look, we do not have a single hospice for war veterans. There is no place where a war veteran can die with honor. Why? Because this is the attitude of the majority of society towards all people, including war veterans. You either pay big money or die there like a dog. When it is shouted that the military needs rehabilitation, I usually say: first of all, our society needs it, which must be taught to accept war veterans, the people with disabilities, and live with them. In other words, we need to bring them up as an environment that accepts them. We don't have to carry them around. No. We need to respect them. And, again, we need to create decent and equal opportunities for them. Otherwise, we have the following situation: he came back from the war - he is not like that. Good people and does he have the conditions to be himself? No. Does he have the opportunity to move on? No, he doesn't. Do you demand that he be the same as before the war? It will not happen. It is impossible! He is neither better nor worse. He is different. He is just different! It needs to be engraved somewhere: we have a new stratum of society - warriors-veterans, veteran warriors (those who returned to fight). They will not go anywhere until they die. We also need to understand that our war will not end tomorrow, and we do not know who our youngest veteran will be. Let's realize that we have such people. And not of their own free will. They did not want to do this. They just fulfilled their sacred duty - they went to defend the country, you and me. So let's defend them now, too, by taking their side, supporting them, helping them, and thanking them for the rest of our lives.
Olha Moskaliuk, Censor.NET
Photo by the author and provided by the hero
