Deputy head of National Police Oleksandr Fatsevych: "Civilian weapons law is badly needed"
What has changed in police operations following the mass murder in Kyiv’s Holosiivskyi district, and have new response protocols for active shooters been introduced? How can an individual with officially registered weapons protect themselves and others in such situations? Why has the number of shooting incidents increased across various regions of the country since the Holosiiv events? Why is a law on civilian firearms necessary, and how can the population be trained to use them if free circulation is permitted?
Oleksandr Fatsevych, Deputy Head of the National Police of Ukraine, answered these and other questions in an interview with Censor.NET.
- During the shooting in Kyiv's Holosiivskyi district on April 18, seven people were killed. Reacting to the incident, Volodymyr Zelenskyy stated that the police must revise all response protocols, training rules, and the use of weapons for public protection "so that such things do not happen again." What has been done in this regard?
- Generally, we have an instruction outlining the procedure for police response to various reports. It defines event categories by priority. Specifically, incidents involving weapons are the highest priority. Dispatchers deploy police units to the scene according to these algorithms and report categories. Additionally, there is a six-month training program for the patrol police, covering tactics, firearms training, medicine, theoretical legal knowledge, and its application, and more.
Regarding the practical part, officers are provided with general skills for disarming criminals, neutralizing threats, or using a lethal weapon.
As for the use of weapons, this refers to cases without atypical situations involving terrorist acts or active shootings. In such scenarios, it is expected that a special forces unit and several police squads will arrive at the scene.
During six months of training at the academy, officers gain sufficient knowledge and skills to understand how to correctly apply coercive measures, physical force, firearms, and special equipment. However, previously in Ukraine, there were no systemic instances of weapon use or terrorist acts resulting in mass civilian casualties.
When police officers were killed in a terrorist attack in Lviv, we revised the response algorithm for attacks involving explosives. We reacted similarly after the events in Kyiv's Holosiivskyi district. An action plan was developed, consisting of several stages. The first stage is the revision of algorithms and internal instructions. We are adding a separate new section to the current National Police instruction detailing the actions of dispatchers and officers in countering an active shooter before a special police operation is initiated.
We have tactical groups to counter active shooters, but there are not many of them. Therefore, based on the existing algorithm for such units, we have developed additional methodological recommendations for the patrol police.
Analyzing the situation in Holosiiv, we see that the officer became disoriented when fire was opened on him and failed to perform the primary task — neutralizing the offender.
Therefore, they must practice a clear action algorithm at the training ground. This is not only about finding cover but also about other actions in similar circumstances. Moreover, events can unfold not only on the street but also indoors, in vehicles, etc.
The course for officers will last two weeks and conclude with training similar to that of a military unit. Both men and women who lack combat experience must undergo this.
- What will it include?
- Training ground residency, physical and firearms training, a specialized smoke-filled obstacle course, etc.
We are currently communicating with combat brigades that have a "Khorunzha" service. Specifically, we are working with the 12th "Azov" Brigade of the National Guard, as we need to strengthen psychological preparation. Such brigades have significant experience in preparing personnel for combat missions.
- Why is all of this only starting now, after the tragedy? You say that nothing like this has happened before. But if you understood that many police officers are fighting and you have personnel shortages, meaning people who have worked in offices for years are now out on patrol, why weren't they prepared? The country is living under conditions of full-scale war, there are plenty of weapons, and anything can happen.
- Let me explain using military personnel as an example. For instance, if a person volunteers to serve and is assigned to a support unit, they still undergo basic military training.
Similarly, police officers undergo the training I mentioned earlier. We are currently revising firearms training for administrative staff, as they previously practiced only once every two months. Additionally, factors like ammunition availability and time were taken into account, and etc.
We are now calculating how much ammunition officers should use per month to at least maintain basic knowledge and skills. I am not even talking about professional development, which is also necessary. It is not just 50 or 100 rounds a year; there is a need for more shooting practice. Overall, according to our supply standards, the entire National Police force requires over 250 million rounds of various categories. This could be purchased, but a significant portion of our funds is directed toward supporting combat units.
A number of managers have been held accountable for deploying administrative staff to street duty who had not undergone additional training to maintain their qualifications. But another issue is that a crew with such a composition should not have responded to this call.
They were responding to a report of hooliganism. However, before they arrived at the scene, there was a clarification that weapons were involved.
A special purpose police armored group and other police crews were also dispatched there, but they arrived first.
- How exactly were they supposed to act when they arrived at the scene and saw the wounded?
- They were supposed to contact the dispatcher via radio to request assistance. The dispatcher had already sent additional units, so they were aware backup was on the way.
They arrive at the scene and see wounded people. They don't see the perpetrator, but they know the person might be armed. If there are two of you, you wait for additional forces to arrive, determine the offender's location, and relay information to the dispatcher if the suspect continues moving.
Two people cannot simultaneously help two or three wounded individuals and secure the perimeter. Therefore, if one of them is providing medical aid, the senior group member must ensure perimeter control.
They also had the right to prepare their weapons for use. To be ready, as they saw there were already casualties.
The shooter comes out and opens fire. What should the police officer do? The officer's task is to neutralize them through lawful means, including the use of weapons, if the criminal opens fire on people or the officer.
Why is it said that, first and foremost, a police officer must secure themselves? In order to effectively use the tool they have. In this case, a firearm from behind cover. When you shoot from cover, you are somewhat more psychologically protected, so your fire will be more accurate.
But once again: do not run, but secure yourself by finding cover from which to control the perimeter, and try to secure the victims. As well as warn bystanders who stop to look about the potential danger.
The important question here is whether the police officer is psychologically prepared, when everything happens as fleetingly as in this situation, to act appropriately rather than make an emotional decision. That is why we must prepare police officers for this.
- If several crews were on their way, why did the shooter manage to reach the supermarket while shooting people?
- Crews are directed to a specific point given by the dispatcher. That is, the location where the incident occurred. But he had already moved on
The next two patrols arrived in literally three minutes and went after the shooter. However, the supermarket is located nearby, and he managed to get inside.
- Following the tragic events in Holosiiv, active discussions began regarding civilian firearms, specifically the right of people to purchase and use them when necessary. There were many posts on social media stating that if this issue had been regulated by law earlier and people had weapons, they could have defended themselves. What if, in this situation, a citizen who already legally owns a weapon had used it, how would law enforcement evaluate such actions?
- There is a concept of the measure of necessary self-defense and the protection of bystanders. They will be accused of exceeding this measure, but the question is what assessment will be given by the investigator, the procedural supervisor, and ultimately the judge.
- So, criminal proceedings will be opened, and there will be an investigation?
- Of course, and during the investigation, it will be established whether the person legally used their weapon to save the lives of others, including their own. There are a lot of nuances here.
Regarding the weapons law. A law on civilian weapons is critically needed. Since the 1990s, we have been living under Order No. 622 "On approval of the Instruction on the acquisition, storage, registration, transportation and use of weapons and ammunition by higher education institutions with specific training conditions belonging to the sphere of management of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine." But whether to adopt it or not is up to the legislature.
A particular debate surrounds short-barreled rifled weapons, meaning pistols, the issue of use and carrying.
If the legislature decides that the free circulation of such weapons should be allowed, consultations must be held with law enforcement agencies and the prosecutor's office regarding the "red lines" of responsibility, the procedure for use, and amendments to the Criminal and Criminal Procedure Codes. In particular, establishing clear boundaries for necessary self-defense and the use of one's personal weapon to protect oneself and neutralize an offender. All this must be stipulated in this draft law.
Equally important is the issue of obtaining weapon permits, as well as the rights and obligations of the weapon owner. This is a matter not only for the Ministry of Internal Affairs but also for the Ministry of Health, as it concerns the medical certificates that individuals subsequently present.
Another issue is training, in which the Ministry of Youth and Sports should be involved. I believe shooting ranges and sports clubs should be granted the right to provide training. However, if they issue a fake certificate without actually providing the training, there must be criminal liability and license revocation. Yes, businesses need to make money, so let them provide training. But they must do so responsibly.
In addition, consultations must also be held regarding the revision of the grounds for the use of weapons by police officers if a decision is made allowing civilians to carry concealed weapons.
- What is your general attitude toward the idea of the free circulation of firearms?
- In my opinion, if such a right is to be granted to civilians, it should be given to veterans. They deserve it.
- Speaking with veterans, I have heard that post-traumatic stress disorder or panic attacks can manifest some time after returning from the front. If, against this backdrop, something also acts as a trigger to use a weapon, what should be done?
- They might have PTSD even now, but they are at the front defending the country. And the state's task is to rehabilitate everyone who has fought so that they do not experience such health problems.
I am talking about something else. If the deputies make a decision, it should primarily apply to the very people who responsibly stood up to defend the country. They earned this right there — at the front. And they are trained in handling weapons.
The shooter we are discussing was not a military man and did not have PTSD, yet he became a murderer.
- Over the past few weeks, there has been an increase in news reports about incidents involving the use of weapons. What is this related to? Did the Holosiiv shooter inspire others, or are the police now communicating more openly about situations that were not previously disclosed publicly?
- It is a coincidence. In most cases, these involve unregistered weapons.
I will repeat: the circulation of civilian weapons must be regulated by law. However, laws are adopted not by us, but by members of parliament
It is similar to the situation with the draft law on peaceful assembly. Well, pass at least something. We are not supporters of any restrictions or approvals. Although in most European Union countries, it is coordinated with the police to determine whether they are ready to ensure public order during an event. We are not discussing that at all. It is solely about organizational matters: who the organizer is, and what the responsibility is, including our own.
The law on weapons is probably more important, but the law on peaceful assembly is also important for our international partners.
- When will the new head of the patrol police department be appointed?
- There are candidates, and we are considering them. But the primary task is to appoint the head of the patrol police in Kyiv. We are communicating with candidates, including individuals with combat experience. Another priority is the implementation of the comprehensive measures I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation.
Until the situation stabilizes, I will temporarily serve as the acting head of the department.
Tetiana Bodnia, "Censor.NET"
