State is fooling people. People are fooling state. It shouldn’t be like that," - Vsevolod Kozhemiako

Vsevolod Kozhemiako is an agrarian who has earned millions of dollars. On February 24, he was abroad but returned to his native Kharkiv and formed a volunteer unit called Khartiia (Charter -ed.), which took part in the fighting in the East and then rose to become a brigade. Now Vsevolod sees his task as modernizing the army, among other things.

- My name is Serhii Melnychuk. Oleksandr Davydenko is holding the camera. We are rushing to Kharkiv, where we will talk with the richest defender of Ukraine, Vsevolod Kozhemiako... Please subscribe to the Ukrainian Witness channel, like, click on the bell icon, comment on our video, because thanks to you we show the war and the processes around it as they are. The first question is always simple. Who are you?

- Well, I am Vsevolod Kozhemiako. What should I say? You can call me an athlete, a businessman, an investor, and something else... Well, a dad, too, by the way. I was recently given some kind of award as "Dad of the Year". I didn't even expect it.

-You suggested that we start our interview here, near the Karazin National University. Why?

- You said you wanted to do the first part about me. This is basically the place where I started my, so to speak, conscious life. When I came to Kharkiv, I entered Kharkiv National University.

-You associate yourself more with Kharkiv than with Poltava, right?

- More so now... Of course, I am a Poltava resident. I was born in Poltava. I remember it. And my parents live there. But of course, I associate it with Kharkiv.

- When the full-scale invasion began, you were in the Alps. I know that. And you went to Kharkiv, not Poltava. Why?

- That's a question... why? What do you mean why? (Speaks in English) Kharkiv is a city in the east of Ukraine, on the border with Russia. I am a Russian-speaking resident of Ukraine and I do not need any support or assistance from the Russian Federation.... (ukr) This is where my home is. My children were born here. How? All my friends were there, everyone was hiding in the basements. And some of them have already joined the battle. The front was here. The front was not in Poltava. Kharkiv was semi-circumscribed. The enemy was already on the outskirts. I thought first of all about arriving in time to prevent the Russians from entering Kharkiv.

- And in Kharkiv, you said it yourself, there was no SSU here anymore.

- I hadn't thought about that. It's not always possible to explain it so clearly. It's just... on a gut feeling, on a subconscious level, I need to come here, that's all.

-What are you doing now?

- Now I am helping to form the Khartiia (Charter -ed.) Brigade as part of the National Guard of Ukraine. I am accumulating resources. I am trying to attract those patrons who can also help, volunteers. I'm trying to recruit people there. I was told by some law enforcement agencies that the State Fiscal Service is not working, but he is receiving money for the fund. Each person judges for himself. If a person steals money from the budget, he thinks that I'm just like him and stealing money too. I can account for every action I take, for every kopeck I receive. I can tell you that, moreover, I have such a skill that I can spend money on the war very effectively. Very effectively. Few people in the country can spend money on war so effectively.

- If you have such a skill, why aren't you still in the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Veterans Affairs, the Ministry of Social Policy, or the Ministry of Reintegration?

- First, I don't think they need people who can say what they think. That's one thing. Secondly, if I worked there, I would probably hang myself. I don't envy these people, because it's very difficult. Because the legal restrictions that exist in terms of working in public office do not allow you to fully realize the potential that you can realize. I can realize it more effectively in the private sector. I am completely satisfied with this. Here is a specific brigade. We are doing a specific reform of the army from the bottom. I am trying to help as much as I can. And not only me but many people. I believe in the people who are building this military organism. I believe in the approaches they are implementing, and I am helping as much as I can.

- In your interviews, you are asked about your place on the Forbes list for the 21st year, 88th place, up-and-down. Mine is similar, but a little different. And why should someone lose a place in the ranking and someone gain?

- I try not to count other people's money, you know. For me, this rating is quite nominal. A lot of people who shouldn't be there. And there are a lot of people who should be, but they are not there. The war changes the economy, certain industries are developing that may not have developed in peacetime, new capital, new people with new ideas, new companies appear and they make money. I'm more, you know... I'm more concerned when money from the budget flows into the pockets of certain people, you know? That's what worries me more. I want people to live their ideas and make money from their ideas. I think this is very good. And it's very important for society. There are a lot of times when the idea to f**k something up, to take it and turn it away, like everything else now, you know? Restoration, storage, and so forth and so on - everything. It's just not possible at all.

- In an interview with Anistrat, you said that you even know of specific cases where people have acquired illegal wealth and left and that people who helped them acquire illegal wealth remain. How do you throw your hands up in all this?

- What do I care about these people? I have my own life. My story is about me, not about those people. Why should I think about them?

- I'll quote Alex Lissitsa, who was asked about you. He said that Kozhemiako is a kind of agrarian aesthete with a tendency to perfectionism. He has a great taste for life and is infinitely devoted to the Kharkiv region and Ukraine in general. So what does life at war taste like? You have been engaged in the actual war for 10 years. I use the word "engaged" because you have an extremely wide range of activities. What is the taste of life here?

- You see, this is the taste of life in what you do, in doing things that are very necessary for this country. It brings you spiritual comfort. If it gives a person comfort, that's the most important thing that can happen.

- I know that the questions are commonplace, really. But...

- No, these are normal questions.

-All people respond to them in different ways.

- Normal questions, there's just nothing wrong with them... there are just passionate people, and I belong to them.

- I had a hero, Serhii Leshchenko. And Serhii was sitting opposite me and said: listen, what will happen when we are finished - we, I mean, the passionate ones. And you just look at it, like, there, there, there, there, there - like, the same old for 10 years.

- Let's go in my car, it will be faster. Get in. (to the girl) Oh, Nataliia.

- If you ran me down, I wouldn't be offended. How are you?

- I'm okay.

- Good... The Mavics are being taken away.

-I see that someone is already carrying the Mavics. -We are filming a program here.

- They need it now in Bakhmut.

- This is Nataliia, a very famous volunteer from Kharkiv.

- Good afternoon.

-Good afternoon.

- He's a crazy man.

- In a good way.

- Yeah, sure.

- In a good way. Have a nice day.

- Same to you.

Volunteer unit "Khartiia" (Charter -ed.), 127th Brigade of Territorial Defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reports

(voice-over) Empires are falling, thrones are falling. The army is moving to the eastern borders. The army will return from the campaign, the truth of the Ukrainian East is with us. Empires are falling, thrones are falling. The army goes to the eastern borders. The army will return from the campaign, the truth of the Ukrainian east is with us.

- The Khartiia (Charter -ed.) was stopped here on the border, what do we say? Glory to Ukraine!

- Glory to the heroes.

-Why Khartiia (Charter -ed.)?

-This is a new type of unit. The brigade's command demonstrates a NATO approach and, in principle, everything works according to NATO standards, primarily the standards of the US Army. We have a team that has a deep understanding of the mdlp tlp system at the scientific level. This is a military decision-making process. What is the main thing in the NATO standard? Not equipment or weapons. The main thing is decision-making algorithms, processes and management of these processes. Planning processes, training processes. Mdlp is a set of these processes at the battalion level. And tlp is at the company level. This is a system that was introduced in NATO countries, which was basically developed in the US Army after they learned from the Vietnam War.

-Who is the backbone of the Khartiia (Charter -ed.) now?

- The brigade has a great commander.

(video) Is everyone ready?

- Yes!

- I can't hear you!

- Yes!

- Glory to Ukraine!

- Glory to the heroes!

(end of video)

- A talented military man, a man who is dedicated to his work. A man who can do everything with his own hands, too. To show, to tell. Not to command from somewhere. He was my deputy in the Khartiia (Charter -ed.) unit. But why was he my deputy? I was much weaker in terms of military skills. I learnt a lot from him. He learnt a lot from me in terms of entrepreneurship, how to work with processes, how to control. As a civilian, I sometimes had a more rigid and uncompromising attitude to certain issues regarding work with people, work with personnel. Ihor, who is a brigadier, has much more patience, and I was sometimes amazed at how much he, being a military man, being a colonel, has endurance and how much he knows how to work with people. Because everyone is used to the fact that in the army...Why don't people join the army? Because there are too many humiliations for people. In the Khartiia (Charter -ed.), everything is different. It's like a big family. These are new approaches. This is, first of all, an order. This is a high-quality economic attitude to everything. To property, including. Well, first of all, to people. Because the main thing is people. And people feel that they are the main thing, that they are the main asset of this team. If they are professionals, if you have a person, for example, who mobilized and worked, and before that worked in finance in some corporation, for example. But because he or she cannot hold a higher position by rank, it doesn't mean that he or she is stupider, you know?

-To me, it sounds like you are building a body that is foreign to the army.

- Well, that's the way it is.

-Okay. But what if the body simply rejects it?

- The main thing is to fulfill the task, and then if this organism fulfills the task and loses fewer people than others, then everyone will see its effectiveness, and when we say that this will happen, when they see the effectiveness, they will say, "Oh, well done, let's implement it here and there and there. This will be the lower-level reform we are talking about. We are going to Belgorod. This is how they attacked. It was called the Belgorod Highway. Here's the city, we're leaving, right? 4 minutes from my house. Here is Ruska Lozova, that's it. This is our first checkpoint. When we came here, this is where it all started. And the enemy was over there, on that landing. When we came here, almost everything was intact. Almost everything was intact.

-Can we go in there?

- We can go there. There will probably be some stray dogs or something... We were shelled here very heavily. Well, I can tell you that not much has changed.

- Do you come here often?

- Here?

-Yes.

- I've been here once in the whole time. Why do I come here? Do you think it's PTSD (post-trauma stress disorder) ? This is where we lived. Here we had an ammunition supplies warehouse. Here is the medical center. Is there no one there? Or I'll shoot. No one's there. And this is where we lived. We slept here. We had a mini headquarters here. In fact, not everyone was here. Because we had our positions. Now we will go to the other side. You can see everything there. There were positions there, here... Anyway, it was kind of central. And so we stood all over the village. There was the front line, the first line and the second line. Over there, where the house was shelled from a helicopter, for example, it burned down, and National Guardsmen were sitting there, guys who ran to us - they were black. We dug these positions.

- It's their unguided air-to-surface missiles that make them that way.

- As you can see, it's all there. We need to be careful here because I don't know if there was any demining here or not. When we arrived here, the first night, and, well, we were shelled, of course, it's clear that from everything. A tank was coming and it fired at us directly, you could see where. And when you kind of hear a shot, he fired a shot and you count the seconds - how long it flies and hits next to you. And so every time. And you know how many rounds he's going to shoot at the ammunition supplies. And every time you count, and you can't go out or run away, it's impossible, because... you don't know where the shell will land. Whether it will hit right there, whether it will hit the door or not. And when he gets closer, closer. Then the next one is further away, and you're there - ugh. Then it's closer again. And this went on for 3 days. Constantly. Constant shelling from different types. And we already knew: they were shooting mortars, or something else. And then this tank would come and shoot at us constantly. And there was no way to respond, you know? When you know something, you know, when you're running around and shooting, you can give some kind of response, you have some anti-tank weapons, you can get them... Or you see the enemy at some distance and can fire, that's one story. But when nothing depends on you at all, you can only sing the anthem, you know. And so, of course, when I watch videos of assault operations and this war directly in the trenches, when there is a face-to-face encounter with the enemy and the guys do this work, I am just in awe of how they do it, very... It's very... you have to have this experience. 

- What is the most painful loss?

- Come on... Let's not talk about it. It's not... What, will there be some painful and some not so painful? My only question now is that we still can't register people for losses, we can't pay them compensation. This is what we are doing and, apparently, we will go to court and sue the state for the right of families to receive monetary compensation. Because when the law on national resistance was passed and when the volunteers went, they said that they had all the social guarantees, such as the military. Just without a salary. Like, no salary, social guarantees - yes, the law says so. But there are no mechanisms to implement these guarantees. Unfortunately. And no one is interested in this anymore. And I think that this primarily depends on the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. Nobody needs anything there. Everyone is doing well. So that's the story.

- Do you keep any accounts? I have a lot of numbers in my phone book. I can neither count them nor delete them. It's like this.

- No, well... I don't know... I guess I should delete them. If I come across one, I delete it. What should I do? What can I do? We have to live on. The war will continue and we don't know how it will be... or rather, we do know. We do not know who will live to see the Victory, who will see it.

(video) Night on the outskirts of Bakhmut. (Sings along) ta-ram... Opytne... (indistinct) I'll tell you, it's more exciting than breakfast at La Rochelle.

-And if we consider the state of Ukraine as a company, what is its current state? And based on this, I may be going too far ahead of myself, but how can we avoid bankruptcy?

- I don't know. This is not a question for me. This is a question for the leaders of the state. It's impossible to think about everything, you know? I have a task, and I do it. I don't want to be an expert on everything. Everything I comment on, everything I understand. I don't understand it. I know how to do it, and that's it. Someone else has to do it in this direction, in that direction. And someone has to work in this area. I hope someone is working on this, right? Not really? Well...

- Shuster's article in Time and Zaluzhnyi's article in the Economist, it was like... as Pokalchuk wrote, that the rose-colored glasses of Ukrainian society have fallen off the nose, if not broken. For some reason, it seems to me that these texts did not come as a surprise to you.

- No, they didn't.

- But for society, for many in society, they did.

- I just... I looked at them, I didn't read carefully. And what did it mean for society? That the war will not end quickly?

- It seems to me that Zaluzhnyi's text can be translated very briefly: we are not in Crimea, because... Figuratively speaking... And society - people there have already tried on their swimming trunks for the bathing season.

- I have always said that I don't like this approach. I don't like it when they go to Kherson and start fasting watermelons there, saying that we're going to eat watermelons... Or Kherson cognac, or some Crimean brandy. People are going there, risking their lives. Why should we put pressure on them... they are performing feats. Why put pressure on them with these other things? And who is sitting on the couch and saying, "We are there now. Who are you? Where are you? Come on! Let's go! And when people ask me questions: what do you think by this date or that date, will we go there then or then... I don't really understand such questions... They are not very clear to me. We stayed here for 4 months before we moved forward. For 4 months, everyone - we, our comrades, various subdivisions from adjacent units - were trying to advance, to advance, every meter, every 20-30-50 meters, every house - it was very difficult. And when you see this, when you understand what titanic efforts must be made in terms of organization and heroism to liberate at least some settlement or take some height, of course, all these talks about how everything will be done quickly do not work.

- In an interview with Volodymyr Fedorin...

- Yes, there is such a person.

-You talked about a people's war.

- Yes.

- Everything for the front, everything for the Victory. We drew analogies with the Second World War. You know, I have a strong feeling that the current state of affairs does not allow us to say that this is a people's war as a fact. Because, let's be honest, we are actually moving to ATO (Anti-Terrorist Operation) -2.

- Yes, I agree. I think that all these are questions that should be addressed not to me, but I think to the political leadership.

- As for the politicians and businessmen who fled. You expressed the hope that (inarticulate) would not allow them to get back in. That was the exact wording. And what about the OPFL (Opposition Platform – For Life) after 2013? Well, that was already happening.

- This is a non-political interview, right? We're talking about the "Khartiia" ("Charter"), right? If we talk about the "Khartiia" ("Charter") now and link it to politics, they will say that... a new... I don't even want to say it, because you record it, I don't even want to call it that... that these are some new ambitions of a person, that this is a political project, the "Khartiia" ("Charter"), that tomorrow the "Khartiia" ("Charter") political party will appear. By the way, they were already hanging themselves when they said: that's it, there was a rumor that we're going to create the "Khartiia" ("Charter") political party. It's happening now. And now there will be a "Khartiia" ("Charter") political party. This is bullshit. And people sitting in their offices are already shaking, right? The people. They see everything. And they understand everything. And you can pretend, you can learn to say the right words, you can pretend that nothing is happening, but everyone sees what is happening. At least, I can speak for our region... to clearly understand where things are happening, how everything is being stolen, and what is going on in the minds of those who are doing this. And when this happens, when society sees it, society also asks: why, if it's like that, why should we be any different? Should we do the same? And it turns out that the state is fooling people. And people fool the state. This is how it works. And it's every man for himself. And this is impossible. This was not the case at the beginning of the Great War and it should not be. Something has to be done about it. That's all I can comment on in response to your question about why we are beginning to resemble ATO-2. Because, yes, some people are already... understandably, people are people, they have their weaknesses. But many people don't care about this war anymore, and they don't live by it.

- What if passionate people like you run out? So, what's next?

- We won't run out of passionate people. I hope they won't. Because new generations are growing up. For example, our young people now are so positive, not that you are only negative... our young people, teenagers, are already growing up with the works of Zhadan, for example, who has become very popular now, and a lot of young people read and listen to him. Our other artists who are patriotic and create a certain.... A certain environment, which is important when they talk about culture-what is important in culture? Why is culture important? We need to educate new generations. People, of course, graduate (inarticulate) from military training. We need to train people, create reserves. That's what the commander-in-chief wrote, by the way. We need to train people. Because we may run out of people who know how to fight. I think that we are basically forming the backbone of the nation, the backbone of any military unit - what is important? To have a backbone around which everything is built. I think that we have been forming the backbone of certain leaders since the year 2014. I'm not talking about presidents or some officials, whatever you might think. I think that the backbone is formed in spite of more than thanks to. But it's there, and I think that at some point, with this collective intelligence, Ukrainians will be able to prevent certain mistakes.

- Is the selection to the "Khartiia" ("Charter") based on the principle of recruitment? Not on the principle of mobilization?

- By all standards, we have a lot of mobilized people. And this is a really big challenge, to train these people, to make sure that they fulfill their duties in good faith so that they can fight later. And there is a certain part that has consciously come to the "Khartiia" ("Charter"). This part is not so big, but we are trying to promote the brand of our brigade. We try to do such recruitment. We try to advertise and show everything, tell and explain how we are different and why people should come to us. There are a lot of people in Ukraine who say that I don't want to volunteer, but if I get a draft notice, I won't hide, I will go and serve, fight if necessary. So I want these people, such people, to see your program, including your program, so that they immediately come to us. You don't even have to go to the military recruitment office. If you receive a draft notice, you go straight to the "Khartiia" ("Charter"), sign up, go through the military medical examination, and then you're in. And this will guarantee that there will be humanity, a human attitude to everything - provision, food, training. And then there will be normal planning in combat operations, clear tasks and... well, a person will find himself. A brigade is a large organism. It's not easy to learn how to shoot or do some tactical training. This is very important. But there is also the work of headquarters, the work of logistics, and the work with personnel. This is also very important. We also need to work on motivation because people are better and easier to train when they are motivated, you know? When they know why they are doing it. Of course, there are common values. Now we are starting to establish the traditions of the brigade, certain rituals, you know? Everyone has them, a certain sign of distinction. We worked for a long time on our emblem, on the chevron. It's not easy either. It's not simple. Andrii helped us a lot. We had many sessions. It is connected with Kharkiv, this emblem. All of this, of course, must be combined to produce a quality result. It has to be of high quality. You can't just learn something, just shoot and that's it. So it's a comprehensive approach. Of course, what is the core value if we are talking about values? Within the brigade, the main value is human life. Because people are the most important component of any process. That is, human life is the first thing you have to learn, you have to learn how to save human life. We need to teach people how to survive. And then to defend themselves. Do you understand? This is the primary thing. Survive, defend, then attack. That's how it goes. As for morale, of course, we need to know why we are doing this, who we are fighting, what makes us different, what our history is, who we are. And we try to show this to people. Leadership. It is very important. We identify and try to identify leaders. We don't accept the Soviet approach of making shit out of a person and then molding something out of it, showing him that he is a nobody. No. We need to show that he is a personality. Or she is. That he or she is useful. But within the team, of course. This is a difficult engineering task, what the brigadier and his team do every day, working with people, talking, engaging in dynamics. It's impossible to do this in one interview. You have to come and see how it happens and how it is done directly. 

- Who can become a part of the "Khartiia" ("Charter")?

- Anyone.

- Who is needed?

- Everyone is needed. Let them come, we will use them all. We will use them as efficiently as possible. All professions are needed. There are a lot of them. We need artillerymen, we need defense men. All are needed. Artillerymen, drivers, and many others are needed, you understand? It is clear that if an IT programmer joins the brigade, we will try not to put him as a machine gunner. Unless he wants to, of course. I know people who say that they don't want to do this, they want to be a machine gunner directly. No question about it. And this can also happen.

- Can we still win?

- Of course, we can. How else could we? Do we have a choice? In general, the question is not whether we are capable or not. I am sure we are capable. We have no choice. We have to win and continue to build our lives normally. The way we want it to be. If we want to build our lives the way we want, we will have to win. Doomed, I would say. Because otherwise, we will build our lives the way someone else wants us to. Ukrainians will definitely not be satisfied with that, I'm sure.

(off-screen) It is worth fighting and it is worth getting up if you have to fall. The heart should be filled with blood and distill it. It has to keep moving. The bones should be firmly fused. Scars should add to the anger. Something has to happen to you. Something has already happened and is still happening. As long as you live and dream about it, as long as you live and dream about it. As long as you snatch it. As long as you hunt. As long as you keep it all inside you. As long as you hate it. As long as you love.

(off-screen) We will not have a situation where you can come to you but do nothing, do not serve, hide somewhere in this way. It is impossible to hide. You will have to work. It doesn't mean that you have to work, go to a trench to storm it, but you have to be somewhere for the body, for the team, and you have to do something useful. You have to be useful. Otherwise, what's the point of all this? So I urge you to join us, friends. This is a very cool story.

- Friends, we are now rushing home. I thank you for watching this video to the end. There is only one thing left for you to do, and if you haven't done it from the beginning, now is the time to do it. Please subscribe to our channel, click on the bell icon, like, comment. Please recommend our channel to your friends, acquaintances and family. Tell them about us and share this video because it is important to us. It is important for us that as many people as possible know the truth about the war in Ukraine and the processes surrounding it. Kisses, love, Serhii Melnychuk, Oleksandr Davydenko. Ukrainian Witness 2023.