Chaplain Viktor Shpot: "Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" in war? But every man has sacred obligation to protect his family..."
The chaplain will soon turn 60 and has been at war since 2014. Now Shpot and his brigade are in the Pokrovsk sector. We’ll talk about this earthly hell later, but first we need to find out the "materiel".
...Before starting the conversation at Censor.NET's request, chaplain Viktor Shpot says a prayer:
- Blessed God, bless all our endeavours, bless Yevhen, bless my answers. You said that man is all speculation, but the answer is in You. God, bless. May the Angel take the coals from the altar and touch my lips, so that I may speak only the truth and what really happened. Amen!
- Mr Victor, judging by your prayer, do you represent one of the Protestant churches?
- 100%. Ukrainian Protestant Church "New Generation".
- Do I understand correctly that Protestants have the largest representation among chaplains?
- No, but Protestants are inherently easy-going!
- Father, how long have you been volunteering as a chaplain?
- Yevgenii, your question seems to reflect the essence of the moment, but not in the right way. It would be better to say "chaplain" rather than "volunteer". Because the only thing that connects me with volunteering is that I spent more than 3 and a half years in the trenches with the guys under orders from the General Staff. And the text of the order contained the following wording: on a volunteer basis. That is, without money, without anything and without any support. It was just like that!
- You mean by God's prayers?
- Yes, I am. But I am also the director of a rehabilitation centre, so you understand. The guys and I used to earn money and go to the frontline - it was easier that way. And there are already some results of the rehabilitation centre's work: 5 people are officers, chaplains of brigades and individual battalions. And once there were drug addicts, drunkards...
- Really?
- Here is the holy true cross for you. What am I going to do, lie to you?
- I believe... Mr Victor, a chaplain is not only a spiritual shepherd, but, depending on the circumstances, a volunteer, a psychologist, and a person who can pass on news from the front line to home, and sometimes in the opposite direction. Have I listed all the chaplaincy functions?
- I do not divide this war into a full-scale war and a preliminary war. It is one for me. Because I knew there would be a war, it was my revelation; maybe I analysed some facts somewhere. But it happened. So I preached for this war and volunteered for it. There were all sorts of things. Pisky, 2014, near Donetsk airport... All that. I have seen this war in many ways. What you have listed is probably not all of it. I was also a medic for a while...
- And when you say that you preached from a position, what do you mean?
- That's what I mean. From 2 November 2014 to 13 February 2015, I was in Pisky with the Right Sector. My positions were "Sky" and "Earth".
- What?!
- Well, that's what they were called. By the way, I had such a revelation from the guys when they said: "Chaplain, you know that the Lord's Prayer is about us." - Yes, of course it is. - No, you don't understand, the Lord's Prayer says: "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And our positions were "Sky" and "Earth", as a cover. I also remember when correspondents came, and they put it this way: the chaplain prayed and sent us to "Heaven".
- How did it happen that the positions were called "Sky" and "Earth"?
- The sky was a tower in Pisky, with a direct line of sight to Donetsk airport.
- One of the main commandments of Christ is "Thou shalt not kill!" And in war, doesn't it lose its meaning? Does the just nature of the war (we are defending our land, our relatives) resolve this contradiction?
- Well, if we're going to talk about theology, then when Jesus was leaving, he says: I told you once before, don't take a bag with you - nothing. And when he leaves, he says: sell everything and buy a sword. And the theologians (who, I think, were working under pressure from the state) said: well, the sword, the Word of God, is a two-edged sword, and so on. But in fact, if we look at the situation that existed at that time, Jesus simply said: buy a sword, defend yourself. On the other hand, let's just say that Adam failed the service. Did he or did he not?
- I guess so.
- If he had not been running around the Garden of Eden, but had been engaged in his work, being close to his wife, the Serpent would not have approached her....
But let's go back to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". In fact, "thou shalt not kill" in Hebrew has two words. The first is: do not kill for profit, for enrichment. But there is another moment when God says: kill everyone. I mean, the episode when they (the people of God) crossed Jericho, and there is an order: not a stone should be left behind.
Moreover, "thou shalt not kill" was for use in one's society. That is, you could not kill someone as part of a showdown. And here we have a sacred obligation for every man to protect his family. So, I think it was the state that influenced this theology and this understanding of the commandment "Thou shalt not kill"...
Moreover, there was a moment in the Holy Scriptures when God says through Moses: All who are the Lord's are to me. This is when Moses came down from the mountain and saw idolatry and he says: the sword was taken, and whoever has a sword that is not bloody is to the Lord. Everyone, you know? That is, there are moments when God is no longer kind, like Mazai, He is jealous. Here, the situation is such that we need to protect our own, our land, our country.
- Absolutely.
- Moreover, when we see that there is such an invasion, and the orcs are people who are so obsessed that there is no other way. So "thou shalt not kill" is conditional in this case. Although it is clear that in general, you should not kill.
- From theology, let's move on to the life of a chaplain. How far do you live from the front line?
- We actually live far away from the positions - 40 kilometres away. But every day we wake up at about half past seven; we wake up, have breakfast, and go where the need is greatest. We go to ROPs, BOPs, as close as possible. As a senior military chaplain in my church, I tell everyone: the chaplain's task is to be there for them. And to be close means to penetrate as far as possible. Because if you go to the very front, then, despite the fact that you will pray, you will not be of any use. Because the guys will need to be distracted to cover you, to waste time on you. And if in 2014 it was more or less okay, now there will be no extra man on the ground. Because it's a terrible war.
In general, a chaplain is the tip of the needle. I tell my chaplains: you need to get to every soldier, wherever they are. (Of course, as much as possible, because God does not favour the stupid). Thank God for our commanders, they give us the green light, and we are as far as possible in combat formations, headquarters, and the Control and Watch Point, and the special forces - everywhere.
(Proudly) A brigade is a brigade. It held Avdiivka for two years. Then we almost got out of the encirclement. And in 2 months we returned. During these 2 months, the orcs have travelled about 25-30 kilometres - and our brigade stopped them. Now they are trying to break through the lines from different sides of our brigade. But the brigade is holding its ground. I am very sure that it is thanks to God's help. This is not to diminish the courage of our guys, but I will come back to that saying from the Bible: "With God we will be mighty, and he will trample down our enemies." In these three months, my brigade shot down 15 aircraft alone.
- You have worked both in peacetime and in the rear. What is the real difference between a pastor practising behind the lines and an experienced chaplain? What are some of the habits and practices of a rear-guard chaplain that do not work or are even inappropriate at the front?
- I'll give you an example from 2018. A guy came with me to the unit, he was a member of the liberation ministry. And when he started telling the guys that you have a demon or something, I said: "My friend, we are going to be shot right here, right away, without leaving the cash register...
- Yeah. What is called "with its own charter...".
- In fact, there are many moments when people seem to be doing a good job, but say things like this... Now this chaplain Mark Sergiev has said all sorts of things about girls at the front. To put it mildly, it would have been better if he hadn't said it at all...
You see, in order for the boys to hear you, you have to become one of them. Not everyone has a good attitude towards the church, and there are reasons for this. Besides, the church (I mean the Moscow Patriarchate) was founded in 1942. This is the Moscow Patriarchate Orthodox Church, which was actually created by Stalin to satisfy the American Lend-Lease. Imagine how many KGB officers there were at that time, and whoever you want in the ranks of that church.
- Well, yes, what a sacrament of confession...
- We believe that if you want to tell someone something or confess, the best place to do it is to a hare in a field. And then shoot it, roast it and eat it immediately. Not to mention that telling a priest is like going to the KGB and writing a confession. It's like muscle memory, like genetic memory - it stays with generations.
- Of the problems and internal traumas you hear about in the army and in personal conversations, what are the three most common types?
- Relationships in the unit, family relationships and the question of what will happen next, why is this the case, when will there be a victory?
- And to what extent did you succeed in helping with relationships in the unit or family relationships? Can you tell us about a case where the story had a good ending and you managed to do the right thing? Without naming names, just the situation itself.
- There was a guy whose wife told him that he didn't love her: he left her in Poland, where they had lived as a family before the war (and the family stayed there), and he went to war. This is despite the fact that he has four or five children, and he is a really good specialist. He shot down six or seven tanks during the war.
- How did the story end?
- He has already quit. I don't know if everything is good or not. He was contused and wounded. They released him.
- In your practice, you hear a lot of psychologically difficult stories: both military and relationship stories. Can you then advise a commander on this or that soldier? Or does what they tell you have the force of a confession, and you shouldn't say such things?
- I can suggest something without naming the person. But there are things when a person mocks the weak, children or helpless, or there may be a suicide attempt - I will not keep silent about such things. Otherwise, I won't give any specific advice about a particular person. Because, of course, this is a confession. And if you talk about it somewhere, it will come out sooner or later.
In general, there are very delicate moments - with whom to talk, how to talk. For example, chaplains came to my reserve company. And there are many refusers there, those who refuse to go to their positions. The chaplains start preaching motivational sermons. And at such times I just say: guys, let's pray for those who are in the trenches now, who are holding the line. This is something that we can do - at least in this way - to influence and help. Maybe the Lord will touch someone in prayer. Because many people refuse to go to the positions, many do not want to, because the losses are so great that God have mercy...
- Have you ever heard people say that you are an atypical priest - not a gentle, not a quiet, not a benevolent priest. You are a bit tough, close to the fighters, down to earth, as the Americans say.
- Of course. I've heard a lot of that.
- And what do you say to such people?
- I say: try to please you. If I start talking to you in academic language now, you won't understand me. I'll bore you so much in 10 minutes that you won't even listen to me. But everything is fine. And whatever we do, it all comes down to preaching the Gospel, prayer, and repentance.
We practice this now. When we arrive, I always say: 'Well, did you pray? As a rule, it depends on who is there to pray. Because if it's a control and observation point, the guys are sitting at their monitors, and they don't have time to break away. By the way, we have already brought a lot of air conditioners there because it is hot. And ours are hovering, drones are broadcasting the situation, and they are already issuing commands based on that situation. It's like a game, so to speak. The only thing is that human lives, human losses...
- Father, where are you from?
- From Dnipro. When I was young, I had problems with the law. I had so many adventures that God have mercy. But I repented, and for 22 years I have been a believer and have been serving God. I became a chaplain. God, you see, has a different sense of humour (smiles - Y.K.).
- So you also know life from the criminal side. Does this help you in your chaplaincy work?
- Maybe it does.
- Does it often happen that you talked to a fighter yesterday, and the next day he is no longer alive?
- There were a lot of such things. A lot of them. Very, very many.
- And how do you bear it?
- I don't know. I'm ignoring, I guess. Because every Christian and minister needs to ignore something. What does it mean to ignore? It does not mean to be passive or indifferent to something. But it is written: "Above all things, guard your heart, for out of it comes the wellspring of life." Prov. 4:23. That is, you do a good deed, but it still touches the heart, because so many have already been buried. And there are Heroes of Ukraine. There are many guys who died. And it touches the heart so much. What can you do? This is life.
- Do you have children?
- I have three daughters.
- And sometimes they say to you: Dad, maybe you wouldn't be fighting anymore, maybe you could come to us, abroad? Or maybe we'll come to Ukraine and live together in Dnipro. What do you say to them?
- As for "living in Dnipro", why did I send them abroad? Because they were all minors. And to live somewhere in Lviv, with friends, is to live on someone's neck. There is no work, there is no money...
They didn't want to go, they said: 'Dad, as soon as we leave, you'll go to war right away. I said, 'You see, your father is so predictable, you know where to find me. We prayed with my wife, and literally two hours later, a guy who hadn't called for three years before (and hadn't called since) called. He said: "Vitia, take your family abroad. And five days before the war, I had filled my wife's car to the brim with petrol...
Uncles with big shoulder straps also told me that I should take my family out. But they didn't want to. And when the third one called me with the same words, on the third day we got into the car. My girls already had their backpacks-alert suitcases ready, and my wife had them too. And that's it, I left. I left Kovel and went down to Lviv. My friend brought me a car there. And on 20 March, I was already in the battalion. They took me in right away.
- So the daughters were right, they knew their father. As soon as they left, their father went to the front.
- That's right. God is a great God, they always tell me... You see, I have an officer's contract here. And I will be 60 years old in seven months. And if someone had once told me that at the age of 60 I would be on the frontline like this, up and down; that we would arrive at 9 o'clock in the evening, and it would be all trenches, the front, fpv, shelling, whatever you want - I might not have believed it. But I know who I serve and what I need to convey to the guys. So, God willing, I'll stay alive - maybe they'll kick me out for retirement.
- Mr Victor, who is going to throw you out? At 60, you have more energy than many 30-year-olds.
- By the way, you're not the first to tell me this. Look, she's threatening me - he's showing his fist (laughs. - E.K.).
- Finally, I would like to ask you a question. How did people in the Pokrovsk direction react to the unexpected raid by the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the Kursk region? What are they saying? What are your feelings?
- Normal feelings, everyone is happy. And when they know that our people are there, it's even better. My brigade is like a forge of personnel. When you have a good commander, they come out - we have already had two brigadiers and more brigadiers. I see guys who were young lieutenants in the second brigade - and now they are deputy brigade commanders or battalion commanders!
I didn't say that in my brigade, wherever I am, I always say the following: "Have you prayed?" "No." "Then let's hold hands and pray. Because when we pray, something happens in the spiritual world. The cup overflows with prayers. And then we can see how the spiritual world is reflected in this world - we see victory. And when we do not pray, then these demons and devils who control the orcs, this Russian land, win. If we are wise, we will turn to the one who can give victory...
By the way, in the brigade I always promote the idea that our victory is our faith, that the world has won. I don't know how the brigade miraculously holds its ground when other brigades are falling apart nearby. Those who came in after us have already been withdrawn, but our brigade is standing - no matter what. I understand that this is only God's providence. Because without God it is impossible. Wherever you look, in the direction of Pokrovsk, my brigade is holding the line. Although the orcs are attacking there the most.
- Meanwhile, in the Kursk region, Muscovites are organising a religious procession - they say that God will support their "holy army against the invading Khokhols". How do you feel about this?
- It is written in the Bible that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, do you understand? The angels of darkness will be dressed as angels of light. They will do whatever they want, they will convert, but I don't think it works. You always have to look at the root: even though we have crossed the border and entered Russia, it doesn't mean that we have any aggressive goals. But even if we go back in history, Kursk is a Ukrainian city, just like the "Beautiful Ukrainian city of Taganrog," Chekhov wrote. Belgorod is the same, it was also Ukraine...
Again, it's not about conquest; it's just about stretching their front, slapping them in the face, showing that Ukraine can do something too. Budanov made a good point: if they don't give us weapons to break these patches that the KABs are throwing down (and we have nothing to fight them with, by and large; there are very few F-16s and they have just appeared), then, he says, we will go in on foot and break everything there...
So let those orcs go where they please, but not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Moreover, the Lord does not hear the prayer of the wicked. Proverbs 15:29, no matter what they say.
Yevhen Kuzmenko, "Censor.NET"
PHOTO from the archive of chaplain Viktor Shpot
