Problem of human resources in army is bigger than slowdown in aid from Western allies - Warrior-Historian Myroslav Borysenko
History professor Myroslav Borysenko has been defending Ukraine since the very beginning of Russia’s attack in 2014 and has been fighting again since 2022. However, he has gained a kind of publicity through his Facebook posts - ironic and sarcastic forays into history with an unexpected twist into the present.
Facebook deleted the most widely shared post because of... the photo of a partially naked Australian soldier that Borysenko used to illustrate it. Nevertheless, the essence of the post has long been a matter of debate: Few soldiers are really defending the state, they should not expect to be demobilized and society should pay them all the respect they deserve.
He prefers to keep silent about the military unit in which he is currently serving, as well as about his military victories. He only clarifies that he is an officer of the Unmanned Systems Forces. That is why his interview with Censor.NET is unusual for a conversation with a warrior - it is a reflection on the past, present and thoughts about the future. Ukrainians have a chance to create a truly strong state and society, where veterans will become the intellectual elite, against the backdrop of the trauma received from the Russians. Instead, in his opinion, society is still heading in the wrong direction.
MANY OF MY STUDENTS HAVE ALREADY DIED DEFENDING UKRAINE
- Myroslav, your extensive forays into history begin as irony and end with devastating sarcasm, behind which one can feel the pain. Are they a kind of self-therapy for you, or do you hope that they will help someone?
- Honestly, it's hard to say for whom I write. There is such a need.
- I have a question for you as a historian. You have repeatedly made references to the past. In particular, you compared the scale of the current war for Ukrainians to the Second World War. What are your reflections now?
- My impressions are quite contradictory. I think that I am very much at fault and, like other historians, I have to wash away guilt. We understood and taught history as a constant process of progress, taught history from simpler forms to more complex ones, from primitive societies to modern ones, and convinced students that war or genocide are phenomena that cannot exist in our time. Now I think that history is no longer an interesting science for me. It will take time for me to rethink it.
I just feel sorry for those scholars who have spent their entire lives studying, for example, World War I, have read a thousand volumes, but any mobilized person who has been through the wooded areas near Robotyne knows what a soldier felt during the battle of Verdun or the Somme. History, as a science of things that happened long ago, seems to have lost its meaning.
- However, already at the end of the twentieth century, there were genocides and ethnic cleansing, famine in Africa. Let's take a closer look at Chechnya and Serbia. Is it possible that many of our experts did not want to pay attention to them?
- Yes, Ukrainian historians were mostly focused on their own history and could not see it in a broader context. This also applies to the problem of decolonization. This word became acceptable in relation to Ukraine after 2022. Before that, we mostly did not talk about our deep trauma as people who were in a state of colonization.
Therefore, on the one hand, we need to have a broader context, and on the other hand, we need to understand that many processes are unchanged and remain with us, including wars and everything that wars bring.
- In historical retrospect, Ukraine has been dealing with Russia for quite some time. Throughout the 33 years of independence, including the last decade, enough public figures and intellectuals have warned that Russia is still a savage anti-humanist and is preparing to commit genocide against Ukrainians.
The fact that we did not pay attention to what was happening in Africa is one thing. But we have had Russia by our side for hundreds of years, and there were many flags indicating that we have no reason to say that it has changed compared to what it was 100, 200, or 300 years ago. How do you explain this blindness, apart from the effect of Russian propaganda?
- If you remember, a popular phrase used when talking about the history of Ukraine is the statement attributed to Volodymyr Vynnychenko that Ukrainian history cannot be read without bromine (major medical sedative - ed. note). And somewhere in the late 1990s, there were calls to move away from the victimization of history and, on the contrary, to present it in a positive way, without focusing on the genocides and traumas that had been experienced. There were corresponding attitudes in teaching. Sometimes I thought that we were over-dramatizing our past and that our young people did not need this.
But the fact that our program included the Holodomor, repressions, and other horrors we experienced is not in vain. If at least one student, influenced by my lecture on the atrocities of Muravyov's army in Kyiv in 1918, left Bucha, Irpin, or another city under the threat of occupation in 2022, I have worked my salary for 10 years.
- Or if one of them joined the army, then also...
- This is a very painful issue for me. As for joining the army, many of my students have already died defending Ukraine, and I feel responsible for that as well. I did not set out to educate my students as people who would join the army in the event of war, it happened by itself.
THE BEST MILITARY OFFICERS ARE MOSTLY MIDDLE-AGED PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACHIEVED SOMETHING IN THEIR LIVES
- Just as the Maidan was a cross-section of society and was created by quite different people, the army is also a cross-section of society - in other words, not everyone is a humanitarian or historian to realize how much the Soviet past or dependence on Russia has affected us. How does this understanding take root in the army?
- First, everything is changing. The modern army is not the army of 2014 or 2015. In order to illustrate the changes, it is best to look at the playlists that are playing in some broken-down pickup truck at the front. In 2015, it was a fierce thrash in the form of Russian pop, starting with Lyube and Tanya Bulanova. The modern music that comes out of the radio in a broken-down Volkswagen Transporter in the eastern direction is patriotic Ukrainian music and military songs, which are indicators of modern military culture. I'm not afraid to say that these songs are part of the rebranding of the army, a change in attitude towards the Ukrainian language, symbols and the new uniform of the Armed Forces.
If we talk about the age and demographic composition of the modern Ukrainian army, this is, of course, one of the most painful issues. We are a unique army that fights with people over 40. The average age of a Ukrainian soldier is 43. This is atypical for any military conflict in the twentieth century. Back then, the average age of a soldier was about 25. And the point is not that life expectancy is increasing, but that certain tasks require really young people with a certain physical condition and level of intelligence, knowledge, and even education. The biggest problem of the modern Ukrainian army is the number of soldiers, there are not enough of them. The second problem is the quality of the military. Taken together, the problem of human resources in Ukraine's army is bigger than the slowdown in aid from Western allies or the quality of weapons.
- How would you recommend solving the human resource problem?
- Ukrainian society must proceed from the fact that we are on the verge of a major catastrophe. This is not a border conflict or a colonial war. It is about preserving the nation and the state. Based on this, the government and society - and I emphasize that society as well - must accept the truth that we must mobilize those who will be most useful in defending our homeland. We must not follow the logic: we will not take these people into the army because they are very smart, and these people because they are very beautiful, and these people because they are too young and have not yet given birth to children. These are nonsense and excuses. Instead, the current system of mobilization is based on the fact that we mostly take into the army those who cannot run away, lie, pay off, or simply hide. The army often includes people who do not care about their lives, and this is a very dangerous trend.
From my personal experience as a commander, the best military men at the moment are mostly middle-aged people - 30 years old - who have a family, a career, a business... who have achieved something in this life. These are people who do not blame someone for their failures, but take responsibility for their lives. That would be the ideal recruit.
- If we follow the path you are talking about, it will hit the image and rating of the government. However, I think that during a war for life, we should not care about our image.
- This is our only chance not just to win, but to survive. Yes, we must mobilize people aged 20 and older. We must also refuse to book students, graduate students, teachers, scientists, and so on. We must return to forced mobilization. We must expand the rights of the TCR with the ability to mobilize anyone on the streets.
As a historian, I can remind you that many nations faced the problem of labor shortages during the war. There were three schemes to fill this shortage. The first one was to hire an army, as Carthage did, but it did not help them much. The second was to send men as a labor force to replace those who had gone to the front, as the Nazis did, and it did not help them. There is another option, when men go to war, and their functions in the rear in the provision of services, in the economy, are taken over by women. This was essentially the case in all European countries and the United States during World War II when large populations had to be mobilized. For the war for survival that is now taking place in Ukraine, this is the only way.
We are at a point where we have to recruit as many people as possible. It is believed that the economy cannot survive if more than 10% of citizens are mobilized. However, we know from history that during the Second World War, the Finns mobilized 14%, and the Austrians mobilized even more. The Americans did not fight on their territory, and they had 16 million people involved in the army, which is a huge part. In fact, the entire society was involved, both on the front line and in the rear. In our country, on the other hand, society decided that a bunch of soldiers should save almost 97% of citizens.
- How do you think about the idea of mobilizing women on a mandatory basis?
- Of course, many women find their place in the army and often fight better than men. But now we have the following solution. Women must replace men who have gone to the front. Not to create new grounds for the reservation of men in the rear, but simply to replace those who are mobilized.
In America, at one time, 65% of workers in the aviation industry were women. The American industry produced one bomber per hour. Imagine this power! This is the unification of the nation. Unfortunately, this is what we have lost, compared to the Maidan and the first stage of the war.
- Myroslav, I can't help but ask you if you have children, how old they are, and if necessary, would you send them to war or learn hard male professions?
- I have a daughter who is 16 years old. But if someone offers another option to solve the shortage of people in the army, I will gladly agree with them.
Throughout the years of independence, men have been called up for military service from the age of 18, and no one has ever had a question. People have never asked why we have not mobilized people under the age of 27 for the last two years. There are no scientifically based medical, psychological or cultural indications for this. And the fact is that in 1967 when the USSR adopted the law on military service, a threshold was introduced that people aged 18-27 had to undergo conscript service. And our current mobilization legislation and system are based on the Soviet law of 1967.
WAR IS A CONSTANT CHALLENGE. YOU NEED TO CONSTANTLY BREAK YOURSELF TO BE IN THE MILITARY SYSTEM
- In one of your recent posts, you hinted to the current soldiers that they will serve in the army until the end of the war. What would you say to the soldiers who are waiting for demobilization?
- Unfortunately, this is a very big problem. I think that most of the soldiers who have been bearing the burden for three years are asking themselves: "Why me?" Why can't I wake up in bed with my wife every morning? Why can't I participate in the upbringing of my child? Why am I deprived of the opportunity to live a normal life? And they start blaming themselves.
I would like to tell my comrades in arms that the problem is not with them. The worst thing is when you blame yourself. Our society can exist only if someone has to protect it. And it will, unfortunately, not be the majority, but a minority that will have to take on this role.
As for the issue of fatigue and demobilization, it is often speculated on. About half a year ago, someone threw the idea of 36 months of service followed by demobilization into the information space, and it became widespread. I would like to mention the Austrian philosopher Viktor Frankl, who was a long-term prisoner of German concentration camps. In his memoirs, he recalls that those prisoners who believed the rumors that the war would end by Christmas 1944 and painted a picture of themselves going home for Christmas simply lost their will to live. For several years, they fought for survival in terrible and difficult conditions, but then, when it became obvious that the war was continuing, they laid down and refused to leave the barracks. The highest mortality rate among prisoners was between Christmas 1944 and New Year 1945. The main reason was psychological breakdown.
Someone may criticize me for comparing prisoners of Nazi concentration camps to soldiers of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. But both of them are living beyond the point of psychological stability. I assume that in February-March of next year, which will be the period of 36 months for many, we will see a huge problem: suicides, desertions, and so on.
War is a constant challenge. You have to break yourself every day to be in the military system and in the same ranks as your comrades in arms. I'm afraid that even those who successfully manage to overpower themselves may not be able to withstand it. If they break down too, then disaster will come.
- In other words, the authorities, both military and civilian, must say: people, there is no other way, we are fighting to the end.
- I don't know who should say this. Many of my comrades in arms say this. The question is that the desire to continue the war is fading in the rear. Polls show that the vast majority of Ukrainians want Ukraine to win. At the same time, there are sentiments that we need to negotiate and give up some of the occupied territories. Unfortunately, this is a progressive trend. Currently, society is clearly divided into those who are fighting and those involved in the war: soldiers, their families, volunteers, and military industry workers. And then there is the rest of the country. These are disproportionately different worlds.
I OFTEN SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT "PUSSIES" BREAK DOWN
- Did you discover anything new about Ukrainians when you joined the army?
- Any war, especially in the initial stages, demonstrates the unity of people. It was surprising to me how people with different educational, cultural, and often ethnic backgrounds share common values and context.
I served for a year in the 35th Marine Brigade. This brigade was formed in the south of Ukraine from residents of the Odesa region, so it was very ethnically diverse. But I saw how these people could find something in common. This sense of belonging to one tribe, which Sebastian Junger talked about, is clearly felt. This is probably the only positive thing that war brings.
I was surprised when in the 35th Brigade, in the fall of 2022, when starlinks appeared, everyone came to it to get in touch with their loved ones. And so the guys gathered around the starlink - in a circle, like ancient warriors around a fire - and everyone spoke to their loved ones in different languages. I heard Bulgarian, Romanian, Gagauz, Russian, Ukrainian... And I understood them, because they all said the same thing as me: that everything was fine and "no one was shooting," that the combat pay would not be received this month, so it was necessary to save money, that it was unknown when the vacation would be. When you see a nation being formed from completely different people right before your eyes, it's incredible. I can't even describe how I felt at that moment.
- I can't help but ask a trite question about your worst experience in the war.
- The worst thing about war is math. When you find yourself in a difficult situation, there is no time for fear. There are people who are really paralyzed by fear, but I have seen very few of them. It's worse when you realize that you have made one combat mission... the second, third, fourth... and each time the shells fall closer to you. In a few seconds, a mine hits the place you just left, and you realize that you have no chance of surviving. You realize that the chances of survival are getting smaller and smaller because the theory of probability is an inexorable thing, and if you were lucky ten times, the eleventh time you enter to zero line may well be the last. So for me, the most important thing is not to lose self-control and motivation before the fight starts, because if you break down before that, then everything will go very badly.
- How do you avoid despair or discouragement in such cases? How do you pull yourself together?
- I didn't say I could pull myself together. Unfortunately, there is no recipe for this. This is the work of psychologists or people with more combat experience. Such recommendations should be in a very accessible form - let's say, in the form of comics. Very often I see people who are not "pussies" break down. It's one thing when a warrior retreats in the face of the first shot in the first battle. It's another thing when a person who has been in the most terrible missions for two years, including contact battles, suddenly loses motivation and the light in his eyes. Therefore, there should clearly be rotations and professional help from psychologists, or these people should be sent to rest.
VETERANS CAN GIVE A LOT TO SOCIETY IF THEY ARE NOT DRIVEN INTO A HOLE OF DEPRESSION
- You emphasize that there is a conflict between the image of the Ukrainian warrior-hero portrayed by television and the real state of affairs. Veterans, in turn, say a lot about the fact that society needs to adapt, not them. Is the truth in the middle?
- Veterans are very useful for society. All global changes that occur in society during or after a war often have a positive dynamic. When Trump said that he would make America great again, he recalled the times when the United States was made great 70-60 years ago by a remarkable generation of World War II veterans. Often civilians say something like, "The guys from the war will come in and restore order," and many people believe that if you vote for people in camouflage, they won't steal and will have honest politics.
In reality, it works quite differently. The prominent American anthropologist and sociologist Clifford Geertz, when asked how he became a great scientist, always answered: Navy, that is, the United States Navy. He served in the army during World War II and as a veteran was able to graduate from university. This was the beginning of his scientific career.
The United States has a top ten list of the most important photographs that reflect significant events in the history of the United States in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. For example, the raising of the flag over Iwo Jima or the assassination of Kennedy. Among them is a photo from 1963, when black Americans were allowed to study at universities. In this photo, a colored small female student is standing in front of a campus where she is not allowed to enter. Her way is blocked by the rector, the dean, the governor, the police chief... And only an inconspicuous man stands next to her - in his 40s, bald, with a belly. He is the prosecutor of this state (Alabama). And at one time, when this girl was just born, he joined the army as a volunteer fighter, served on bombers. He made several flights to Europe, where he was expected to be shot down and captured. And this honest prosecutor puts his career and life on the line for the sake of the truth, because Alabama was a very difficult state at the time, and it could have cost the prosecutor who defended black people his life. However, it is obvious that a man who could fly an airplane packed with explosives was not afraid of such things. Thanks to him, this girl got to campus and was able to receive an education.
Therefore, veterans can give a lot to society if society does not drive them into a hole of depression and PTSD, as is often the case in Ukraine.
- Do you have your own examples of being driven into such a hole?
- I think that few people will be interested in my personal examples. But ask, for example, military spouses. I am convinced that they were the first victims of the fact that people sitting on the sofas have their own understanding of what a Ukrainian military man or his wife should look like. In 2014-2016, they thought that a Ukrainian soldier was a poor 19-year-old conscript, although this is not the case. The same applies to women. In other words, people who have never fought have an idea of what a servicewoman should look like. And no matter how hard you try, you won't be able to get into this trend, and most likely you will be perceived with some suspicion because you will not meet the expectations of society about what a veteran should look like.
Now the Institute of National Memory is developing its own recommendations on how a victory warrior should look like and how their memory should be preserved. When I looked at their requirements, I realized that I definitely didn't fit in, because I missed a few points.
For example.
- When Anton Drobovych, the head of the UINM, says that the image of a Ukrainian veteran cannot be a white man, I realize that I don't fit in. When among the main requirements for the memorialization of war veterans is a list of 9 points of requirements that the government puts forward for a veteran, I realize that I do not meet many of them. I'm definitely not as perfect as the head of the UINM sees the average soldier. For example, I recall the incident near Bila Krynytsia - I threw a stone at a cat that had pissed on my sleeping bag. So, probably, I don't deserve to be remembered for some of these things.
- You can't do this without irony...
- It's hard for people who have never lived in such conditions and don't know what a sleeping bag is to understand. If a cat has peed there, you can't sleep there anymore. I'm not proud of this act, but unfortunately, it happened.
THE UKRAINIAN ARMY RETAINS A CREATIVE STRATUM. THANKS TO THIS, WE ARE STILL AHEAD OF THE RUSSIANS IN TERMS OF UAV
- What are your impressions of the Russian army? To what extent have you had close encounters with them?
- To be honest, I have mixed impressions. Very often they really act like barbarians. This applies, for example, to the way they treat people. Although it is difficult for me to call their soldiers people, for me they are just pixels on a screen. They do not value their personnel because they have a lot of them. On the other hand, their army is progressing. This can be seen in technology, in the organization of the battlefield, communications, UAVs. Their army is quite strictly structured and has a high level of discipline. In this regard, they remind me somewhat of Genghis Khan's Mongol army. Each of them individually was a poorly armed weak warrior, but as a massed, controlled force, they posed a serious danger.
- What about the comparison in the use of UAVs? It is believed that Ukrainians are slightly ahead of Russians in terms of quality.
- At first glance, it seems that we are far ahead of the Russians. But this is only due to the fact that the Ukrainian army retains a creative stratum, especially among lower-level commanders and a large number of pilots. What distinguishes us from the Russians is that we make a network-based army. We have many groups and people who are able to interact on a horizontal level, bypassing headquarters and often even their commanders. That is why we exchange information faster and find a common solution at the tactical level for the use of unmanned systems faster. The Russians have a more structured approach, they publish a lot of guidelines, they try to share experiences, but they lose time, so in this regard, they are one step behind.
Technologically speaking, what we are fighting with in terms of UAVs is 90% made of "shit and sticks." All new products that come to us require additional intervention and improvement. And if we don't mobilize people with technical education, experience in this field, and sufficient intelligence into the army now, we will finally lose our advantage in the system of unmanned systems. We need to win technologically, and for this we need a completely different kind of soldier. If we were to mobilize two thousand students, postgraduates, and scientists majoring in radio electronics, cybernetics, and so on, we would see fundamental changes in 3-4 months and the situation would turn in our favor. There are only two thousand of them! No need to hide them behind silly excuses.
- One of the arguments against it is that we are actually losing a generation. If we mobilize even more specialists from this generation, we will lose even more and there will be no one to rebuild the state after the war.
- Even demographers voice similar opinions. I will give an example of graduate students. Imagine that at this moment, at a Kyiv university, a postgraduate student according to his deferment is sitting and writing a dissertation on Taras Shevchenko. At this time, we are losing planting after planting, city after city. Sooner or later, the Russians will reach Kyiv, raise their tricolor over the university, and call it the Lomonosov State University. And you realize that this graduate student will start writing his dissertation about.... Alexander Sergeevich Pushkin. We've seen it all before.
So I'm not going to talk about the next generation of Ukrainians. You can see how Ukrainians instantly disappeared in the Kuban. Even before the Second World War, they made up 90-95% of the population there, and afterwards there were less than 10% of them. They are being killed and assimilated.
This war is a chance to unite our society on the basis of our common difficult and often traumatic experience. This is our chance to create a great generation of veterans who will take responsibility for the country, community, and their families. War is an opportunity to build a new system of moral coordinates that will unite our country. Instead, we see that our society is simply fragmenting into those who sing about the "yellow-blue heart" and those who fight for their flag. The active minority, which has taken responsibility for the fate of the state, now feels that it is left alone with the most terrible challenge in the history of Europe. And this is the greatest tragedy of our generation and the entire nation.
Olha Skorokhod, Censor. NET
