Interview with captured traitor wanted by all law enforcement agencies and under EU sanctions

Author: Yurii Butusov

One of the heroes of the Russian Spring surrendered to the soldiers of the "Svoboda" (Freedom) battalion of the 4th Brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine.

A person who is now directly on the European Union's sanctions list along with Russian generals and other war criminals.

German Prokopiv, his name is Lee Won Chol, a citizen of Ukraine who betrayed his oath, he was a Ukrainian soldier, but in 2014 he sided with Russian Federation. It was German Prokopiv who ripped down the Ukrainian flag from the building of the Luhansk Regional Council. He was the commander of the combat wing of the so-called Luhansk Guard. This was one of the units used by the Russian special services to cover up the aggression against Ukraine, and they subsequently legalized the entry of Russian troops.

Prokopiv took part in combat operations against Ukrainian troops, one of the first units. He fired a mortar at the Ukrainian military back in June 2014. That is 10 years in the war. And such an experienced war criminal, a traitor, 10 years in the war, started the overthrow of the Ukrainian government in Luhansk, and raised his hands and surrendered to the fighters of the Freedom Battalion. For the first time, we can talk with you about a man who was wanted by the SSU, all law enforcement agencies, who is under European Union sanctions.

BUTUSOV Where were you born, where did you live, how old are you?

СAPTIVE I am 31 years old, I was born in Prague, Czech Republic, I moved to Luhansk. My grandmother was here. My father abandoned her. Mother moved here.

BUTUSOV tell us how you sided with the rf, became a traitor to Ukraine, how you brought the war to Ukraine. How did it happen to you?

СAPTIVE Well, at that moment it did not seem to me that we had betrayed Ukraine, because we all know that there was a coup, Maidan, at first I even somehow supported Maidan, when there were just people there, I even thought it was good, but when I saw the scenes, parties, politicians, I understood everything. Taking into account the fact that I lived all the time in Donbas, accordingly, our ideology is a little, well, as a little, in principle, far from western Ukraine, which has always been closer to Europe. Accordingly, there were such disagreements that we are better with Russia than with Europe. And we rose not against the Ukrainian people, but against the authorities. 

- Belik and I are in Luhansk on the Maidan. We came to defend the Ukrainian people. More precisely, already Russian.

СAPTIVE in the centre of Luhansk.

BUTUSOV Do you recognise these people?

СAPTIVE Yes, yes, yes. These are guys, well, actually, I remember the video, these are guys from Russia, friends. At the moment, Serega had to serve. He's going to continue his service.

BUTUSOV - Video is amazing. Some gangsters were with you. 

СAPTIVE Judging by the comments, by all this, you can hear, and by the number of years that have passed, that we were 20 years old then.

BUTUSOV How old were you?

СAPTIVE  At that time I was 19 or 20 years old, something like that.

BUTUSOV But you served in the army.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV You served in the Ukrainian army.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV You took an oath to the Ukrainian people.

СAPTIVE To the people, but not to the government.

BUTUSOV Well, you take an oath to the people, and then on this video you and the Russians take down the flag under which you served and to which you took an oath. Did you take an oath to the Russian people? 

СAPTIVE  No.

BUTUSOV You understand that this is a betrayal. It looks like this.

СAPTIVE I believe, to be honest, that I was not an opponent of the people

BUTUSOV Well, you're threatening people with guns here

СAPTIVE We had the guns against the authorities.

BUTUSOV Where did you get the weapons, the pistols?

СAPTIVE There were 22 BB caps and rubber and pepper projectile guns.

BUTUSOV  How did you meet the Russians and went with them..

СAPTIVE We met on Vkontakte and corresponded back and forth.

BUTUSOV Why did they come here? Where did they get the money and time to come to you and rip down Ukrainian flags as citizens of another state?

СAPTIVE They came to visit, to stay, to see.

BUTUSOV To you personally?

СAPTIVE Yes, to me. Because the news always tells you one thing, but it's always better to see it with your own eyes.

BUTUSOV Where did you serve in the Ukrainian army?

СAPTIVE In the 79th Airmobile Brigade. Mykolaiv. At that time, he was assigned to the A 0224.

BUTUSOV Did you fight against your comrades in arms?

СAPTIVE No, I can say that I even corresponded with some of them during the war.

BUTUSOV The brigade defended Ukraine.

СAPTIVE Yes, I know. And I corresponded with some of them. We decided not to quarrel because we were eating from the same pot together. And there's no point in figuring out who's right and who's wrong on the internet.

BUTUSOV Not fighting, but shooting at them, right? 

СAPTIVE Well, there were no 79ths on defensive lines where I was standing.

BUTUSOV Well, yes. "What defensive lines did you hold?

СAPTIVE Mostly it was Luhanskaya stanitsa (large Cossack village - ed. note )

BUTUSOV You shot at other Ukrainian soldiers, didn't you? I see. Yes, I wonder about your logic. 

BUTUSOV - Now friends, after this video, let's look at the record, Russian propagandist Anastasia Pyaterikova made this record: "Every year on August 22nd is celebrated the day of the Russian national flag. The flag is one of the main symbols of the state. Over the building of the Lugansk regional administration in 2014, our Herman Lee Won Chol was the first to hang the flag of the Russian Federation. The first got into the sanctions list of the European Union. Personal sanctions were imposed against him. And only then against the army of the South-East, and only then against the Luhansk People's Republic itself. It was German, the head of the militant wing of the Luhansk Guard, who raised the Russian tricolor 10 years ago. The Ukrainian authorities opened the first criminal case against him and put him on the wanted list. People like him are not written about in newspapers or filmed. People like him are not given the Hero of the Republic and are not set as an example to the younger generation. The leaders of the Russian Spring are consigned to oblivion. The newest history is rewritten, and merits are appropriated by uninvolved enemies of Russia. But not in force God, but in truth. And the truth will surely triumph". 

After such a presentation, we now understand that German Prokopiv, Lee Won Chol, is one of the people who took the most active part in the fight against Ukraine, toppled the Ukrainian flag, ripped it down, and contributed to the occupation of Russia.

BUTUSOV  At the moment, on the EU sanctions tracker website of the European Union, German Prokopiv is listed on 29 April 2014 in the first EU sanctions list against those who betrayed Ukraine and started the war in Ukraine, and sanctions were just announced. And Prokopiv's name is there, along with other leaders of Russian aggression. This includes the current Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Gerasimov, and German Prokopiv is among them. So this is a very revealing and characteristic story. We will talk about it, and now we will restore what happened. I am sure that after that, all our law enforcement agencies will be interested in this story.

WHERE THE CALL SIGN CAME FROM

Could you please give us some background information? By your name, why do you have German Prokopiv on your European list, and is Lee Won-Chol your real name?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Where did German Prokopiv come from?

СAPTIVE Well, it's kind of my call sign German, my baptized name, I didn't invent anything, and I thought that if I took a call sign like Liutyi (Atrocious), Zloy (Angry), it would be immediately clear. I took my baptized name as a call sign, and to introduce myself there in general, few people go there, asks, in short, my mother's surname Prokopiv by mother. 

BUTUSOV How did you perceive the fact that you were on the EU sanctions list? 

СAPTIVE Honestly? With a little pride because I had a feeling that I was doing something right.

BUTUSOV What about the fact that the SSU opened a criminal case against you, how did they react?

СAPTIVE This is the government, and we fought against the government. and i will tell you this, you can go very far on youthful maximalism. If I'm on this list, it's my personal opinion why I'm on it. Not because I am some important guy or super cool. It's because I was just at that time and have never been afraid to speak my mind.

BUTUSOV Were you not afraid to speak your mind in Ukraine?

СAPTIVE No.

BUTUSOV And under Russia?

СAPTIVE Yes, and under Russia, in principle. Well, we are having an interview, so there is a chance to test me.

BUTUSOV on the website Farvater Skhid, the author of the article by Ole Huth, wrote a very important investigation,

Tricolours in Luhansk 2014: "Farvater.Vostok identifies names of Russians involved

This is a very interesting article, it shows that most of the participants in the anti-Ukrainian protests were citizens of the Russian Federation, not local Ukrainians. That is, all these active actions, most of the people are all citizens of the Russian Federation, that is, people whom the Russian Federation sent to Ukraine for a reason, in order to organise provocations and create a pretext for sending in Russian troops. But of course, all these Russian agents could not have acted without the aid of traitors, unfortunately, on our side.

One of those who was the leader of such militants and one of those who led these Russians around Luhansk and together with them carried out the tasks of the Russian agency was Lee Van Chol, aka German Prokopyv.

СAPTIVE Accordingly, if you follow up, you will not find the full name in any of the materials, i.e. only German Prokopyv, but no patronymic.

BUTUSOV Where is your mother from?

СAPTIVE  from Luhansk.

WHO RIPPED DOWN THE FLAGS AND HOW

BUTUSOV: Tell us about the events that led to your decision to betray Ukraine. Tell us how you met the Russians, why were there only Russians in your group? These people, tell us about them. 

СAPTIVE Not only Russians, there's a guy from Luhansk.

BUTUSOV It says here that it was  March 4, 2014. There were 5 people involved in the flag plant on a high-rise building in the centre of Luhansk, a cameraman and 4 performers. That is, there were 5 people. Their call signs were Operator, Nike, Vanek, Belik and Revolver. Whose call sign is Revolver?

СAPTIVE That's mine.

BUTUSOV Yes, and there was also Rodimka (Mole). Whose call sign was Mole?

СAPTIVE This is a guy from Luhansk.

BUTUSOV What is his name and surname?

СAPTIVE: I don't remember his name anymore. If we had kept in touch, I might have remembered.

BUTUSOV The page is registered as Stas Fedyuk. And you and this man served together?

СAPTIVE That's it, that's what it was.

BUTUSOV Stas Fedyuk?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV There's a photograph here. When did you get this photograph?

СAPTIVE It was our demobilisation.

BUTUSOV They were also members of the 79th Brigade until 2014, conscripts. Do you know their fate?

СAPTIVE No.

BUTUSOV So, tell us then, this Fedyuk, he was also from Luhansk, you are from Luhansk, you are citizens of Ukraine. And who were Nike, Operator and Vanek?

СAPTIVE These were guys from Russia, who, as I said, we met on a social network, they asked how the situation was, if it was really like that. I invited them to come and see for themselves, and so they came.

BUTUSOV Did you personally do all this yourself?

СAPTIVE In terms of these rallies, right? Yes!

BUTUSOV  So you didn't coordinate with anyone, you just went on your own?

СAPTIVE No, there was no coordination, I can even tell you how and why. When these small groups started to gather, let's call them Anti-Maidan, I met Anastasia Pyaterikova at one of these meetings, we talked, realised that we had the same views. Accordingly, we started to create Vkontakte groups and started to work together. We were antiparty, that is, we didn't support anyone at all, neither the Party of Regions nor any other parties, I don't remember what other parties there were, Vitrenko's was a party, I remember, and they always tried to get in our way. Accordingly, there was a person from the Party of Regions, Arsen Klinchayev, and he often tried to get in, and we chased him away when we held meetings or rallies. And it got to the point where he was standing in front of us, in front of our meeting, and giving interviews to journalists, as if it was all his movement.

BUTUSOV Well, you were nevertheless a member of the Luhansk Guard.

СAPTIVE Yes, that was our NGO from Pyaterikova.

BUTUSOV You were the head of the combat wing of the Luhansk Guard. Well, there were leaders of the Luhansk Guard, people who, unlike you, well, according to Russian data, again.....

СAPTIVE  Kharitonov used to be with us, but we moved away from him, and this Luhansk Guard, they split into two parts, they called themselves Luhansk Guard 2.0, here. And we are just the Luhansk Guard, and we have remained.

BUTUSOV Well, that's your opinion. In fact, the leader of this Luhansk Guard, Alexander Kharitonov, addressed Putin from Luhansk. That's interesting. He appealed to Putin to send Russian troops to Donbas. Did you oppose Kharitonov's actions at the time?

СAPTIVE We didn't agree with him.

BUTUSOV You didn't agree to the Russian troops being sent in?

СAPTIVE We thought we could manage on our own.

BUTUSOV But you invited Russians from Russia to help you. Why didn't you rip down the flag with Ukrainian citizens?

СAPTIVEIt wasn't an army, it was two people.

BUTUSOV Three?

СAPTIVE Well, three.

BUTUSOV Were these all Russians who were with you, or were there others?

СAPTIVE There were out-of-town visitors, yes. Most of them were from Luhansk.

BUTUSOV But for some reason you still brought Russians to rip down the flag.

СAPTIVE Well, it was like they were coming to visit. 

BUTUSOV To visit? You said you invited them to Luhansk for what purpose? For what purpose? To visit, to stay?

СAPTIVE To make a stay, to get to know the situation and what is going on here.

BUTUSOV With the guns to come on a visit together.

СAPTIVE They were our guns.

BUTUSOV Did you give them?

СAPTIVE They did not have any.

BUTUSOV And you gave them guns and went to rip the flag. It doesn't seem logical to you that you should have negotiated with the Ukrainians at that time, but you took the Russians.

СAPTIVE  The Ukrainians were down there.

BUTUSOV But the Russians were more reliable for this purpose?

СAPTIVE  No, they are exactly the same.

HE DID NOT SEE THE RUSSIAN MILITARY

BUTUSOV You rip down the flag on 4 March. What did you do next after you rip down the Ukrainian flag and hang up the Russian flag?

СAPTIVE  We continued to organise these rallies and meetings. And in principle, everything was diminished a little bit, because the seizures of buildings started. We seized the administration and the SSU buildings in Luhansk. And then the civil war started.

BUTUSOV With the Russians? You had Russians everywhere.

СAPTIVE  Not everywhere, why?

BUTUSOV Where have you not had Russians?

СAPTIVE  What about Bolotov, is he Russian?

BUTUSOV Well, military units were in charge. By whom? Who was in charge of those units, military units that you fought in, for example? Who fought at Luhansk airport, Stanytsia Luhanska? Did you see any Russian military there?

СAPTIVE The volunteer fighters were from Stanytsia Luhanska, on a par with the same Luhansk citizens. 

BUTUSOV Did you see any Russian soldiers there?

СAPTIVE  There were no servicemen.

BUTUSOV Where did you get the weapons?

СAPTIVE The commanders got the weapons themselves.

BUTUSOV You are on your own. You are out of the loop, you don't know anything.

СAPTIVE  It is clear that some of the weapons are likely to be from the arsenals of the SSU and the MIA

BUTUSOV tanks, grenade launchers. You have grenade launchers in your photo here. Were there grenade launchers in the arsenals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, or did the SSU have grenade launchers that you were photographed with? In the 2020. Here you are in the photo in 2020. Where did you get all these weapons, an RPG-7 grenade launcher in 2020?

СAPTIVE It was already given in the army. When they created the LPR`s Militia. How would a simple soldier know.... 

BUTUSOV you are not an ordinary soldier, you took part in all such events, Luhansk Guards, appeal to Putin. 

СAPTIVE I decided not to appear on TV or get involved in politics, but just like an ordinary man, I went to serve.

BUTUSOV And here you are marching with a flag in front. What is it?

СAPTIVE  is all Russian marches during the period when the flag is raised over the administration. This can all be fit into one week in principle. These are the events.

BUTUSOV I see. But nevertheless, you were well known enough, you didn't hide to show your face.

СAPTIVE  Yes. Because I think that people who hide their faces mean they are not sure what they are doing. That is, one can be three times wrong for others, for the second, for the first, for the third. But if a person hides his face, it means that he doubts himself and his motives. That is, it is either money, he does it either for money, or for power, or for some other privileges. Accordingly, if a person hides behind a mask, it means that this work is not for him. 

WHERE ARE THOSE WHO RIPPED DOWN THE FLAG NOW

BUTUSOV Where are the five people who were with you, what is their fate?

They ripped down the Ukrainian flag and hang up the Russian flag.

СAPTIVE  I don't know about that. I was talking about one guy, his name is Serega.

The last time we talked to him, he was a soldier in the Russian Federation.

Here. Accordingly, I don't know its fate.

BUTUSOV The strangers came to you to rip down the flag, but they did not come to serve with you.

It's strange.

СAPTIVE It is not their war.

BUTUSOV Yeah. So the war was provoked and you were sent there to fight it. Alone.

Your friends are interesting.

LIFE IN LUHANSK AFTER THE RUSSIAN SPRING

BUTUSOV Tell us, you are in fact one of the people who brought the Russian world to Luhansk. Tell us about life in Luhansk, what kind of life you and your comrades have organized. What is the general standard of living, the level of wages, after you overthrew Ukraine and brought the Russians there. How did the Russians organize you there, what living conditions, what was the salary. Your mom worked as a teacher, right? What kind of salary did she get, how did she do there? 

BUTUSOV Where does your mother live now?

СAPTIVE in Luhansk.

BUTUSOV Where does he work?

СAPTIVE She is now retired, she is a former teacher.

BUTUSOV What kind of pension does your mother receive?

СAPTIVE Well, a small one.

BUTUSOV Well, how much did the son finally make before Russian occupation, and obviously mom must feel some benefit from it. I wonder how much you mom, what kind of pension you have organized by your actions?

СAPTIVE  About 15 thousand.

BUTUSOV 15 thousand rubles, right? Yes. What else did the Russian world give you and your family? Maybe you received some other apartments, awards, medals? What did you receive for seizing power in Luhansk?

СAPTIVE  Yes, in principle, nothing. I didn't go for money or power. Accordingly, I think everyone understands that if I had gone for money or power, I probably wouldn't be here. I would be in a warm place, well-fed, and free from any hustle

BUTUSOV How much did you get paid?

СAPTIVE  Well, at that time I was serving under a contract. That is, it was about 15 thousand rubles at that time, too.

BUTUSOV Well, 15,000 rubles, right? Yes. Did the thought of working in peace ever occur in your mind? 

 СAPTIVE  Yes, I did, but it's a bit of a problem to quit.

BUTUSOV Well, did you like it?

СAPTIVE  I can't say that I liked it, because a person who has been to war has to be sick to like it.

BUTUSOV But you've been at war for 10 years, maybe you're sick too?

СAPTIVE  Not at all, here. It's just that I went for the idea at first, and then it became just a job for me because I didn't find myself in civilian life.

BUTUSOV You have been at war for 10 years, so you are a very experienced, motivated soldier.

СAPTIVE Well, I wouldn't say experienced, because I'm basically self-taught. That is, I have no special training. And my general base is the school of the 79th Airmobile Brigade in Mykolaiv.

BUTUSOV May the brigade forgive us for mentioning the heroic name.

СAPTIVE  My mother hasn't worked as a teacher for a long time. She has a pension of about 15 thousand. Basically, when I was in Luhansk,  road construction started. 

BUTUSOV 15 thousand, 200 dollars, right?

СAPTIVE  Yes, some people may have even less.

BUTUSOV $150 at the current exchange rate. Your pension is very normal, isn't it? Is it enough for you and your mum?

СAPTIVE Not much, but I helped.

BUTUSOV What was your salary in the army?

СAPTIVE Over 200 thousand.

BUTUSOV This is after the start, right?

СAPTIVE And before SMO (Special Military Operation - ed. note), it's about 15-16k.

BUTUSOV Yeah, wow.

СAPTIVE Well, prices have risen now, too, because salaries are lagging behind. The military in Luhansk, in principle, can live comfortably on their military wages. For civilians, however, it’s difficult to make ends meet.

BUTUSOV Well, what are the salaries in Luhansk now?

СAPTIVE  Oh, well, on average, I guess it's very average. It's about 30 thousand. That is, it's still not enough. Especially if you rent an apartment. And if you have children, you need to feed them and provide with boots. You have to get dressed, put on shoes, and eat something. I mean, well, it's like that. The standard of living is quite low, in principle.

BUTUSOV So it was worth bringing in Russia to organise a certain standard of living for your own people? These are simply pauper's conditions. Your mother receives a miserable pension. Now you're not going to give her any money. And that's it.

СAPTIVE You should always hope for the best.

BUTUSOV Well, what hopes did you have when you were taking down the Ukrainian flag? Did you say something there, to your friends, to your mum, to your friends, to your comrades? What did you expect? What would happen in Luhansk?

СAPTIVE  That it will be like in Moscow.

BUTUSOV Yes. How different is it from Moscow in general? Have you been to Moscow?

СAPTIVE  Quite a lot.

BUTUSOV Yes, quite a lot.

WHEN HE FIRST TOOK UP ARMS

BUTUSOV Well, yes. Yes, it's interesting to know about your participation in hostilities. When did you take up arms and take part in hostilities against Ukrainian soldiers?

СAPTIVE How many times?

BUTUSOV When did you first take up arms?

СAPTIVE It was a few days after the attack on Luhansk. An air strike. But I think no one will deny that it was an air strike on the centre. And at that moment, I can honestly tell you, something had changed inside me. I thought it was a war.

BUTUSOV Tell us, then, how was your unit organised, which organised the attack on the Ukrainian military units?

Who gave you military weapons?

СAPTIVE Andriukha Chechen was in command. He took part in the attack and was killed. Accordingly, after him, Misha Chechen took over. But they were all from Luhansk. He also died, Misha Chechen. We gathered weapons, but in the army there was no training to speak of - weapons were given to everyone and we went. 

BUTUSOV - What kind of weapons were given?

СAPTIVE Kalashnikov assault rifles and grenade launchers were captured.

BUTUSOV And mortars?

СAPTIVE  We did not have mortars. That much I know for sure.

BUTUSOV Really? There is a video of you with a mortar. Video. Separatists Luhansk. Separatists are using a mortar to shell the airport. Let's see.

СAPTIVE It was at the airport.

BUTUSOV Yes. This is the beginning of June 2014.

СAPTIVE We are talking about the stanitsa now.

BUTUSOV Where did you get the mortar? You've just told me that you took and used weapons seized from the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Security Service of Ukraine. Where did you get the mortar, German? Are you saying that the SSU had mortars?

СAPTIVE Well, I can't know that, because I wasn't there in those caches. And if there's a mortar, how do I know? 

BUTUSOV You didn't know how?

СAPTIVE No, I knew how to use it.

BUTUSOV So you were the commander of a mortar team?

СAPTIVE More like an instructor.

BUTUSOV Well, you are directly involved here, you are shooting at Ukrainian paratroopers at Luhansk airport. Those people with whom you served in the same army until recently, whom you betrayed and are now killing, you are shooting at Luhansk airport, not at anyone else. And there were Ukrainian paratroopers there, and you are now shooting at them.

СAPTIVE  Yes, but the paratroopers were armed, right? I called it a civil war.

BUTUSOV Well, you called it a civil war, but according to the law it is not a civil war. If you take the weapons that the Russian Federation gives you, ammunition, mortars.

СAPTIVE  I'm not sure it was given by the Russian Federation.

BUTUSOV Who gave you what?

СAPTIVE  The commanders brought it to us and asked who knew how to use it.

BUTUSOV Where could it have come from?

СAPTIVE  Possibly, it was seized.

BUTUSOV From whom?

СAPTIVE  Ukrainian authorities.

BUTUSOV Where?

СAPTIVE Possibly in some kind of clashes.

BUTUSOV I see. You're pretending that you don't know where you could have got the weapon. I mean, you served in the Russian army for 10 years and you don't know where you got the weapon.

СAPTIVE  No, well, when the LPR was created, it is clear that there were some supplies.

BUTUSOV What kind of military unit was it that you fired a mortar at?

СAPTIVE  It's all from the stanitsa. When we had community.

СAPTIVE We had uncontrolled groups at that time. That is, the entire 'Luhansk People's Republic', the entire militia, was divided into groups. And these groups were quite mobile. They could be moved from a village to somewhere else. That is, we were in command, our unit was stationed directly in the stanitsa.

BUTUSOV You told me that you were stationing in the stanitsa with small arms. It turns out that you were not stationing in the stanitsa but near the Luhansk airport with a mortar.

СAPTIVE We were the ones who left.

BUTUSOV Where else did you go? And with what weapons?

СAPTIVE  We went to Kalinove in February 2015.

BUTUSOV So, what did you do at Kalinove?

СAPTIVE We waged trench warfare.

BUTUSOV In Kalinove?

СAPTIVE  By the way, this is the photo where you showed us with grenade launcher. It was taken in Kalinovo.

BUTUSOV So you took part in the Debaltseve operation?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV What were your actions at Kalynove? Did you fire at Ukrainian soldiers in the area?

СAPTIVE At that time, neither the distance nor the situation allowed us to do so. We had just consolidated ourselves on the defensive lines.

BUTUSOV Where else did you take part in hostilities in 2014?

СAPTIVE The siege of Stanytsia. We went to the airport. And that's it. The stanytsia region is mostly. We stood on Makarova Street, at the checkpoint too. They knocked us out of there. We moved across the Siverskyi Donets River, or Pionerska.

HOW MANY UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS HE KILLED

BUTUSOV What losses did you inflict on the Ukrainian army? How many Ukrainian soldiers did you kill?

СAPTIVE  I cannot answer this question because, well, I think you understand why. Because you have talked to a lot of soldiers, and when there is shooting, that's how you know if I killed or my comrade in arms killed.

BUTUSOV Well, in fact, you wrote it differently here.

On June 13, 2014, after the firing of mortars at Luhansk airport, you published this report that on June 12 at around 9.30 a.m., the combat wing of the Luhansk Guard, together with the rapid response task force, attacked the positions of the National Guard. In response, the enemy struck at the Kamyshevka locality. However, the only shot of the fascists from a 120-mm mortar was stopped by return fire. The result of the short battle was the destruction of a gun, a mortar crew, enemy cargo vehicles, as well as 15 killed and about 40 wounded. There were no losses among the militia. This is a greeting from the Ministry of Health of Lugansk.

СAPTIVE I will explain to you about the Ministry of Health in Luhansk. This is when they hit the administration, a woman, the Minister of Health, was killed there. 

BUTUSOV Appointed by the Russian authorities, as the building was occupied by the Russian occupation administration in Luhansk. It is important to add.

СAPTIVE  Next. Let's look at it objectively.

BUTUSOV No, please answer the question. Here you have published the results of the shooting. You say I didn't know. However, here you wrote that 15 people were killed. So you knew you had killed.

СAPTIVE It is part of the information warfare. Propaganda. How could I have known? For sure.

BUTUSOV But you wrote that you had information from somewhere.

СAPTIVE  I could have written more, I could have written less.

BUTUSOV Well, and the destroyed guns, mortars, did you make it all up, are you saying that now?

СAPTIVE We were shooting just the old-fashioned way. Overshooting, undershooting, overshooting. There were no magnetic compass directors, nothing. There were no observers, in fact.

BUTUSOV Where were you shooting at?

СAPTIVE in the direction of the enemy. This is how the war was fought in 2014.

There was a man with a walkie-talkie in the next wood line and he was talking further, closer, further, closer. And given how much you are involved in the military sphere, military environment, you realize what there is to be seen there. Absolutely nothing. 

BUTUSOV Well, I thought you were making an assessment first. Nevertheless, is all of this a lie?"

СAPTIVE  Well, it turns out that maybe it's not a lie. Perhaps there were some killed and wounded. But information warfare is also a war.

BUTUSOV Yes, well, you see, you've spoken frankly enough here.

You see, you say it was only Chechen.

And here you write that you carried out the operation together with a rapid response team.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV You forgot to mention this unit. I was just asking you about it.

СAPTIVE It was 10 years ago.

BUTUSOV Tell us who you knew in the rapid response task force, which later became part of the 4th Motorised Rifle Brigade in the Russian Federation.

СAPTIVE I knew San Sanych before he died. I thought he was a pretty competent guy.

BUTUSOV What is the name of this San Sanych?

СAPTIVE I don't remember her last name. If you remind me, I'll say she was...

BUTUSOV Bednov.

СAPTIVE  Yes, I think so. My friend Valentyn died with him, too.

BUTUSOV Together with Bednov?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV So you know how Bednov was killed?

СAPTIVE Well...

BUTUSOV Please tell us what you know, this information, and what is the name of your friend who...

СAPTIVE I don't remember his last name either.

BUTUSOV Your friend, what was his name?

СAPTIVE Valentin 

BUTUSOV Call sign?

СAPTIVE  Val.

BUTUSOV Val. He was killed together with Bednov.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Tell us, under what circumstances, when did this happen?

СAPTIVE It happened on New Year's Eve. As I found out, they had hit a mine.

BUTUSOV You're joking. There is a video of them being shot with grenade launchers on the outskirts of Luhansk. Are you saying you didn't know that?

СAPTIVE  I didn't see the video, but I heard that it might have been because of a quarrel with Plotnitsky. I was told that it was a mine. Perhaps it was laid on purpose.

BUTUSOV In all Russian sources, if you even open Wikipedia, Strelkov-Girkin write that Bednov was shot.

Who?

СAPTIVE The Wagner PMC 

BUTUSOV PMC Wagner. Do you know this?

It happened on the outskirts of Luhansk. And Wagner armoured vehicles took part in this operation. It was not just a mine. The whole of Luhansk knows this, because it was on the road. At the entrance to Luhansk.

СAPTIVE I was told that he was not in Luhansk but in Sverdlovka.

BUTUSOV And he and his bodyguards were eliminated, of course. The Russian world has also eliminated another hero of the Russian Spring like you. What was the reason for Bednov's conflict with Wagner and Plotnitsky?

СAPTIVE From my observations, it seemed to me that he was involved in politics.

Because then we can come to the conclusion that when there was an election between Plotnitsky and Bednov, he was also running. Accordingly, as we can see, Plotnitsky had the upper hand.

AS PART OF WHICH UNIT HE PARTICIPATED IN THE DEBALTSEVE OPERATION

BUTUSOV As part of what unit, what military unit did you take part in the Debaltseve operation?

СAPTIVE  It turns out that this was already the second brigade.

11th TDF battalion.

BUTUSOV Yes. Who was the commander?

СAPTIVE Misha Chechen is captured.

BUTUSOV Was Misha Chechen a battalion commander?

СAPTIVE He was a battalion commander.

It has been there from the very beginning, since 2014.

BUTUSOV Yes.

Mikhail Kishchik, call sign Misha Chechen. Lieutenant colonel of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. Eliminated. Eliminated in April 2022. Already during a full-scale war. 

СAPTIVE  Yes.

BUTUSOV Yes. And Andrei Chechen, your friend?

СAPTIVE He was killed at the very beginning, literally there, on the second or third day of our clashes with the Ukrainian army.

BUTUSOV When exactly did this happen? 

СAPTIVE When did Andrei Chechen die? It was around, I'll say now, probably April or so.

BUTUSOV What year?

СAPTIVE  Fall 2014.

BUTUSOV Was he the first one to give you a weapon?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV and commanded a combat unit of the Luhansk Guard?

СAPTIVE  No, he gathered them together, like the 11th TDF battalion, like the Cossacks.

So he organised people, and those who agreed with him from the combat wing of the Luhansk Guard, we joined them.

BUTUSOV Yes, you started serving in the second brigade.

СAPTIVE  Yes. I served as a member of the reconnaissance company of the second brigade.

BUTUSOV So, who was the commander of the second brigade?

At the time I served there, it was Tashkent.

Oh, he was Baku at first, the call sign, then Tashkent. Tashkent, he died relatively recently.

BUTUSOV He was a brigade commander, right? And he died as a brigade commander in this full-scale war.

СAPTIVE  Yes, yes, yes. I think it was in 2023.

BUTUSOV Under what circumstances was Tashkent eliminated?

СAPTIVE Well, they say UAVs.

BUTUSOV The drone hit.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Indeed, according to Ukrainian channels, which are confirmed by all Russian sources, Denis Ivanov, the commander of the second motorized rifle brigade of the Russian Armed Forces,
was eliminated in July 2023.

BUTUSOV So, tell us about your further participation in the war since 2015, after the Debaltsevo operation. Where did you serve after that for these 10 years?

СAPTIVE Well, in 2017, I resigned from the second brigade. In 2019, I went to serve again. I served with the second brigade's reconnaissance company.

We did mostly what? Surveillance on the line of contact. Well, and the transfer of data on the movement of columns and so on. Roughly speaking, we entered the war at the beginning of the full-scale war.

CONTRACT SERVICE

BUTUSOV You went back to work in 2019. Reconnaissance company.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Who was the commander of the reconnaissance company?

СAPTIVE Bair Saitov

BUTUSOV Is he also a Luhansk resident?

СAPTIVE  Well, he was the one who was a volunteer fighter.

BUTUSOV From which country?

СAPTIVE  From Russia.

BUTUSOV You were commanded by Russians. Your brigade commander, Denis Ivanov, is a Russian officer. The commander of the reconnaissance company, Bair Saitov, is a Russian officer.

СAPTIVE  Yes, but nevertheless, we also have Luhansk locals in our units. It's who has proven themselves, who has been honored, roughly speaking

BUTUSOV But there is not a single brigade commander. All Russian officers are at the highest level. Brigade staffs, brigade commanders. And most of the battalion commanders. You know this yourself.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV So you said there is a civil war. And for some reason, Russian servicemen are in command in this, as you say, civil war. Amazing, isn't it? This kind of contradiction doesn't surprise you in the least. It should be.

СAPTIVE  You know, to be honest, I hadn't really thought about it before.

Until this moment.

FULL-SCALE INVASION

BUTUSOV Well, until you were sent into a meat assault, of course you didn't. It's amazing how much you managed to come out dry through that situation. But it is interesting to know your combat path since February 24, 2022.

СAPTIVE We went in the morning for our deployment point. It was in the area of the Shchastia Bridge. There, well, while the commanders discussed it, while we received orders, we moved to another point. This is the area of Trokhizbenka, Hrechishkine. There was set up a pontoon crossing. Accordingly, the reconnaissance company of the 1st of the brigade moved forward. Our task was to escort the brigade.

FIRST FIRE CONTACT

BUTUSOV What was it like when you had your first fire contact?

СAPTIVE The first fire contact we had was in Krasnorichenske. How can you call it direct fire contact? It was the fire of artillery on us of all kinds. And, in principle, that's all. That was the first skirmish, and after that everything went on.

BUTUSOV When was the first time you were in close combat?

СAPTIVE  Rubizhne.

BUTUSOV Tell us about the first close contact, how it happened.

СAPTIVE The first close contact.

BUTUSOV Shooting combat.

СAPTIVE  We had the task of advancing a group of infantry. We thought the building was strange. We went to the front line. We decided to open check fire to open up the firing point. We disclosed the firing point, and we were hit back. We fought further.

BUTUSOV In Rubizhne, it was the first. How did the fighting continue?

СAPTIVE It's hard, it's bad.

Many civilians were found and pulled out.

BUTUSOV Tell us how you fought against the Ukrainians. You were captured by the 'Freedom' battalion, which was fighting in Rubizhne at the time. It is easy for us to verify all the information you give us. These people fought in Rubizhne. It is important for us to know how it happened on your side.

СAPTIVE The main task of the reconnaissance team was to uncover firing points. The infantry or mobile units advanced further.

When we encountered problems, we requested artillery.

It was basically like this.

BUTUSOV Did you take part in any assault battles? Did you storm any objects?

СAPTIVE  We mainly disclosed firing points. Our task was to disclose firing points.

BUTUSOV What were the losses of the second brigade?

СAPTIVE  At that time, after Rubizhne, I think we lost up to half of the brigade.

BUTUSOV How?

СAPTIVE  In the same small arms battles, in the same assaults. Not as many as now, of course, but the losses were high.

BUTUSOV And why? What was the main reason?

СAPTIVE  I think it's the lack of experience of the command. How can I formulate? Not even experience. Yes, maybe experience. Lack of communication, lack of communication between units.

Personally, I have been shot at six times by my own soldiers. That is, the training of the brigade I serve in is quite low.

BUTUSOV In a reconnaissance company, even?

СAPTIVE  Yes. The guys who had some experience, they were either killed or discharged due to wounds. Now, I think you can see from the situation what is happening on the battlefield. And, accordingly, you can conclude that no matter what kind of training and no matter what kind of unit you have, it's all the same.

WHAT COMES NEXT AFTER THE RUBIZHNE

BUTUSOV What's next after Rubizhne? Where were you heading?

СAPTIVE I was captured in Sieverodonetsk.

BUTUSOV Tell us about your participation in the battles for Severodonetsk.

СAPTIVE The tasks, in principle, have not changed. It was to disclose firing points, observation, and sometimes defence. We moved through the quarry from Oleksandrivka, through the forest. Mostly, a mobile company worked there. The guys also suffered high losses. And ours too.

BUTUSOV So, what's the next step?

СAPTIVE Later, I knew that the 3rd battalion went there. The guys were captured there. They were captured there. They did not touch our group yet. Then we were redeployed.

BUTUSOV After Sieverodonetsk, what were the actions of your group and yourself? Where were you sent?

AFTER SIEVERODONETSK KREMINNA

СAPTIVE We were moved closer to Kreminna, so that we could attack Lysychansk.

СAPTIVE There we conducted forces crossing the Donets.

BUTUSOV Yes.

СAPTIVE  Here, on boats, that's how we crossed. We didn't encounter anyone there, I mean, the settlement was empty, in fact. Well, only civilians. And when we entered Lysychansk, we entered it without any fighting.

BUTUSOV Yes, yes, I remember. Yes, further on, after Lysychansk.

СAPTIVE Not even actually, but simply without fighting.

BUTUSOV Yes. And then what happened?

СAPTIVE After Lysychansk, it was a refinery, I didn't take part there, I was fighting for the refinery, here, in the wooden areas, here, not far from here, from the place where I was captured.

BUTUSOV Tell us about the fighting after the capture of Lysychansk, and how long have you and your second brigade been here, in this area?

СAPTIVE Yes, it's been quite a long time, in fact, the team has been here for about two years.

BUTUSOV So you've been in this lane for two years without change?

СAPTIVE I didn't. I was leaving because my contract was over, so I still had time for the oil refinery. Here, behind the oil refinery in the wooded areas, it turns out, in the direction of Siversk, we were advancing the groups, there were already some sort of assault actions, and slowly, slowly we were advancing. Accordingly, somewhere in November, on November 4, my contract expired, and I tried to leave the ranks of the "People's Militia of the Luhansk People's Republic". 

BUTUSOV When did your contract end?

СAPTIVE on 4th or 5th of November 2022.

BUTUSOV Yes, and you tried to resign?

СAPTIVE Yeah.

BUTUSOV Yeah.

AWOL FROM UNIT

СAPTIVE Since my health condition did not allow me to do so, and my moral and psychological state did not allow me to do so, I was sent to the military service, I went AWOL (absence without official leave).

BUTUSOV So you left the brigade?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV And what happened, what kind of fight did you have, after which you decided that's it, I'm going home to my wife?

СAPTIVE  My contract ended, I just left.

BUTUSOV And they started looking for you?

СAPTIVE Yeah

BUTUSOV Yeah

СAPTIVE Here it is. I was a citizen for a year and a half.

BUTUSOV Were you hiding?

СAPTIVE I was hiding, yes.

BUTUSOV in Luhansk?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Paradox. The hero of the Russian Spring in Luhansk is hiding from the Russian authorities in Luhansk. Nine and a half years later. It's a paradox in general. Just the apotheosis of the Russian world. A year and a half. How did you manage to hide? The police and the FSB work like this, they catch all these AWOL soldiers, and everyone in general, there is full mobilisation. There are no men on the street. How did you survive in Luhansk?

СAPTIVE Why, there are men on the street.

BUTUSOV Well, do you have them? Well, did they check your documents?

СAPTIVE They didn`t check my documents 

BUTUSOV How did you manage to disguise yourself like that? There's a full, we're seeing here, the Philharmonic is even mobilizing generally all the artists.

СAPTIVE  Philharmonic?

BUTUSOV Yes.

СAPTIVE  This is recent, isn't it? 

BUTUSOV Well, it wasn't like that.

СAPTIVE  Well, I know that they mobilised from production at the beginning, in 2022.

BUTUSOV Well, was it possible to walk around without showing any documents?

СAPTIVE  No, I just haven't caught their eyes.

BUTUSOV And where did you get the money to live on?

СAPTIVE  Money, it turns out, well, I was working part-time.

BUTUSOV Where can AWOL soldier work in Luhansk now?

СAPTIVE  At a construction site.

BUTUSOV At a construction site?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Which construction sites hire people without documents?

СAPTIVE Private firms, private organisations that need roof coating somewhere.

BUTUSOV So you worked there without being officially registered?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV How much did you earn per month?

СAPTIVE  About 50.

BUTUSOV Not much.

WHY HE LEFT THE BRIGADE

BUTUSOV What was the reason why you went AWOL, why did the commanders do that? Because without your words, it is clear that you just decided to have a rest with your family and stay in Luhansk.

СAPTIVE  The assaults began, similar to the way I was captured.

BUTUSOV And what was the assault in November or October 2022, after which you decided to go AWOL?

СAPTIVE Well, that was in the wooded areas behind the refinery. We didn't have enough support, neither artillery nor anything. The command did not respond to what we said: there is a tank firing from there, artillery is firing from there. We needed support. People were dying right on the spot. And that was it.

BUTUSOV Where did you advance? What was the aim?

СAPTIVE We were advancing towards Siversk through the wooded areas.

BUTUSOV Tell me, is it impossible to travel out from Luhansk to Russia? Do you have a passport of the Russian Federation? 

СAPTIVE I have already have it, at the time I didn't.

BUTUSOV No passport? Did you fight there for nine years without a passport?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV With a Ukrainian passport and some kind of certificate from the LPR?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Why didn't they issue you a passport for so long?

СAPTIVE  Yes, I had problems with the documents. Again, the name had to be changed, that's all, in short. Because the name, let's just say, is not very popular. A lot of mistakes are made in the documents, constantly. And it also takes time to redo them.

BUTUSOV So you lived in Luhansk without a passport and worked for a year and a half?

СAPTIVE Yes.

HOW HE RETURNED TO THE ARMY

BUTUSOV What happened, why were you drafted into the army anyway? How did you come back to defend Russia after a year and a half away from the AWOL?

СAPTIVE  They found me where I live. They came and took me away from the brigade. They took me to the Investigative Committee. They opened a criminal case. And they sent me here.

BUTUSOV How did the brigade find you in Luhansk? You had been hiding so successfully for a year and a half.

СAPTIVE  The police, military police, commandant's office are working.

СAPTIVE  How did it happen in the first place? How did they enter your house, break in, or your workplace?

СAPTIVE  in the entrance.

BUTUSOV Were they waiting for you?

СAPTIVE They were waiting outside the apartment, yes.

BUTUSOV Were you beaten during the arrest?

СAPTIVE  Not too much, but...

BUTUSOV tell us how you were treated by the Luhansk police after you were detained?

СAPTIVE Actually, the treatment was pretty loyal. It was the people who were picking me up who had a tough treatment. I wasn't allowed to hand my wife the keys. She was left at night at 10 o'clock at night, early 11 o'clock, with a baby, with no keys at the door. I told them, like, let me at least hand over the keys. They were like, no, let's go. I mean, that's how it was happening approximately. 

BUTUSOV And who is your wife?

СAPTIVE Elena Karitskaya

BUTUSOV Elena Karitskaya.

BUTUSOV And you have children.

СAPTIVE  Yes, daughter.

BUTUSOV Daughter. How old is your daughter?

СAPTIVE She turned 2 this year.

СAPTIVE We came up to the entrance. I was with a stroller, with a child. They asked, "Are you so-and-so? I said yes. They said, let's go. I said, what about your documents? Let me see your ID first. Well, they arrested me there.

BUTUSOV Did they even know who you were in the brigade? That you were a hero of the Russian world, that you ripped down the Ukrainian flag.

СAPTIVE  I'm telling you that you are greatly exaggerating my importance.

BUTUSOV Yes, and what did they say to the police, to the representative of the second brigade that arrived, yes?

СAPTIVE  Yes.

BUTUSOV How did they address you?

СAPTIVE Nothing, they said you would go to serve. They took me first to the commandant's office, here, I sat there. Here, then to the Investigative Committee. They told me that a criminal case would be opened like this. I said okay.

BUTUSOV You are a criminal under both Ukrainian and Russian law.

That's amazing, wow. You are wanted here and there.

СAPTIVE  Well, Bandera was in prison too.

HOW HE WAS DETAINED

BUTUSOV Didn't they introduce yourself?

СAPTIVE No.

BUTUSOV Yes, I see.

СAPTIVE  And the thing is that as soon as I was issued an indictment, I was transferred back to the army. I mean, that's how it was.

BUTUSOV Were the Brigade happy to have such an experienced fighter back?

СAPTIVE I guess not. That's why I'm here.

BUTUSOV What happened after you arrived at the unit? When was that?

СAPTIVE It was about a month ago.

BUTUSOV In September?

СAPTIVE Approximately, yes.

WHERE HE FOUGHT AFTER RETURNING TO THE ARMY

BUTUSOV Well, what did you see in the war? Tell us the order of battle.

СAPTIVE Me and a few other guys, it's about, from the company, about five people, even 15 and 15 people, here, from the firing range, who arrived literally, there, maybe two weeks ago, there, on average, here, were taken to Komyshuvakha. They didn't explain anything to us, they said we were coming to a new place. They told us to pack our things, that is, without weapons, without everything. From Komyshuvakha, composite group was organized and we were transferred to the second TDF with groups of guys from other units. And it turns out that, as I understand it, we have a free staff, here, we have a free staff, and 10 people, in short, somewhere every day we were taken away.

BUTUSOV So, from the reconnaissance company you were part of, you were included in a composite group as part of the 2nd battalion of the TDF.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV And from this 2nd battalion of the TDF, 10 people are taken away, that is, one subdivision per day.

СAPTIVE  Yeah, well, they took away about one subdivision a day.

BUTUSOV It was sent to the assault.

СAPTIVE  Well, we didn't know at the time, we were told that everything was fine, guys, you would come there, you would get a foothold in the positions, you would sit there, you would defend yourself, you would do that.

BUTUSOV Did anyone come back from these groups that were sent out before this? 

СAPTIVE No one.

BUTUSOV So no one could tell you what was in store for you?

СAPTIVE No.

HOW HE STORMED OUT BEFORE BEING CAPTURED

BUTUSOV Well, tell us about what happened, how they sent you to storm the place, what was it like?

СAPTIVE We were brought from Komyshyvakha to the refinery, given weapons, we had never been there before, we were told that a drone would guide us, that our people were everywhere, that everything was fine, in short, you just had to go and that was it.

They sent two people at a time, put mattresses and insulating pads on us.

BUTUSOV What are you wearing?

СAPTIVE Insulating pads.

BUTUSOV Are you wearing mattresses, insulating pads? 

СAPTIVE  Yeah, well, it's kind of a homemade disguise.

BUTUSOV So, you mean to reduce, what is the purpose of the disguise?

СAPTIVE  Reduces the heat signature.

BUTUSOV Did you also wear an insulating pad?

СAPTIVE  Yes.

BUTUSOV Is it convenient at all?

СAPTIVE It feels like walking in a barrel, like in a stupid cartoon.

BUTUSOV It's amazing.

СAPTIVE  When a man wears a barrel on top and thinks no one can see him. 

BUTUSOV Was it in The Adventures of Shurik, when person wrapped it in wallpaper, right?

СAPTIVE  Well, something, something like that, yes.

СAPTIVE  Well, there you go.

BUTUSOV And did your commanders tell you that this is how you should protect yourself from drones?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Didn't anyone laugh at that moment?

СAPTIVE  Well, we were just in tears, so it was like...

BUTUSOV Yes.

СAPTIVE  In general, we moved forward, it turns out, to these wooded areas, from where we started. 

BUTUSOV What is the speed of movement in a roll, in a roll of plastic in a insulating pad?

СAPTIVE  Well, it's about, about, I don't know, 6 kilometres in 2 hours, anyway.

Maybe even at 3 o'clock. That's about right.

BUTUSOV So you're saying that's all the weapons you had in your equipment?

СAPTIVE  A backpack, it had a bottle of water, a can of stew. I had three boxes of bullets.

BUTUSOV 3 boxes of bullets?

СAPTIVE  3 boxes of bullets.

BUTUSOV 150 rounds in total?

СAPTIVE No, 90. Well, 90 in boxes, I guess.

BUTUSOV 90 in boxes.

СAPTIVE  and 4 magazine cases.

BUTUSOV 90 in boxes and 4 magazine cases.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Why is it so small?

СAPTIVE  Well, as I understand it, we probably didn't need more.

BUTUSOV But as an experienced fighter, didn't it bother you that you weren't even given ammunition to fight?

СAPTIVE  I was certainly confused. I was also confused by these mattresses. Even at the first stage. But an order is an order. Here. And, in general, my...

BUTUSOV Well, you didn't say anything to the commander about it ...?

СAPTIVE We talked and talked and proved that it was all idiocy. No, everything was fine there, our people were there, everything was fine there.

BUTUSOV You said it was idiotic to walk around wrapped in a mattress?

СAPTIVE We said.

BUTUSOV What commander? Who did you talk to, the commander?

СAPTIVE  It was Zhadnyi (Greedy) who briefed us directly before our stationing. This is the commander of the Storm.

BUTUSOV Yeah. So it was you who got into Storm?

СAPTIVE  Well, I understand that the second TDF is under Storm's operational control.

BUTUSOV And it was Greedy who told you to wrap yourself in mattresses, soldiers, how was that? Listen to my command, wrap yourself in mattresses, right?

СAPTIVE  Yeah, he said, you can't go any other way, it's the only way you have a chance to get to your own people, in short. That's because there are fields, not fields, that's all there is.

BUTUSOV You wrapped up, you were given insulating pads to wrap up? Did they give everyone the same amount of ammunition?

СAPTIVE  About give or take, yes.

BUTUSOV Four magazine cases in total?

СAPTIVE Some had fewer magazine cases. There were two or three magazine cases.

BUTUSOV Yes. You realize that you were sent one way, right?

СAPTIVE  Well, approximately yes, we realized

BUTUSOV What other weapons did they give you?

СAPTIVE Only machine guns and grenades.

BUTUSOV Did they give you grenades too?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV and grenade launchers, nothing like that?

СAPTIVE  No, nothing heavy at all.

BUTUSOV Why did you take so little water?

СAPTIVE  Well, because they told us that everything is there, here. And if anything, they'll drop it off by drone.

BUTUSOV Now tell us how it happened. Do you remember the date when it happened? When did you start advancing?

СAPTIVE  I think it was either the 11th or the 12th, I'm not sure.

BUTUSOV Is it October already?

СAPTIVE  Yes, yes, yes.

BUTUSOV 11th. So this is essentially one combat mission for you?

СAPTIVE  Yes.

BUTUSOV Your first combat mission, and you were taken prisoner right away?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Tell us how you started the advance, from what point, how many kilometres did you have to go to the point, to the object?

СAPTIVE From our outermost frontiers it turned out to be about 5 kilometers. We had to walk in these mattresses, which were absolutely uncomfortable. We could not use weapons in them, because they were on our belts. And the mattresses themselves, well, as they look like, let's imagine that this is an insulating pad, we roll it into a ring, sew it up. The second insulating pad, roll it into a ring, sew it up, sew them to each other, we get a cylinder. And on top of such a canopy, also from an insulating pad. 

BUTUSOV How did you see where you were going?

СAPTIVE  Anyhow. We were guided by a drone.

BUTUSOV Wait a minute, did you have slits for your eyes?

СAPTIVE  There were, but at night it was...

BUTUSOV So you had slits for your eyes, and you, how did you carry this insulating pad on your back?

СAPTIVE I held it, they were covered with a camouflage netting on top, and I was holding him by the camouflage netting like this so that it wouldn't fall off me.

BUTUSOV It's amazing, just amazing. Did you take any photos or videos of yourself?

СAPTIVE They took our phones and documents from us before our stationing.

BUTUSOV There were no phones? How did you navigate the terrain?

СAPTIVE  We were guided by a drone.

BUTUSOV Only by drone?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Did you get the radio communications sets?

СAPTIVE  Yes, one for two.

BUTUSOV It's amazing.

 So, please tell us how the stationing took place, how many fighters were in your group?

СAPTIVE  My childhood friend, Lesha Titarenko, and I, and he died.

BUTUSOV And how did Lesha Titarenko join the same group with you?

СAPTIVE  He was there too, he was taken to a reconnaissance company, then transferred to Komyshuvakha. And, in general, he and I were sent together.

BUTUSOV Did he also go AWOL ?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Did you escape together?

СAPTIVE  No, I only saw him at the commandant's office. We hadn't seen each other for many, many years.

BUTUSOV I see. Yeah, but are there any soldiers left in the reconnaissance company?

СAPTIVE None of them were able to function

BUTUSOV And who is left there?

СAPTIVE Officers and wounded.

BUTUSOV What was your position called, where were you supposed to go?

СAPTIVE Iron. It was called the Iron.

BUTUSOV So you were shown a map? Did you see where you were going in general? Did you orient yourself? 

СAPTIVE No. Well, they showed me the map. I remembered something, give or take. I remembered that you just have to walk along the wood line and that's it.

BUTUSOV You reached a position called Iron. How long did it take you to reach Iron?

СAPTIVE  About 3 hours.

BUTUSOV When did you leave? Was it morning, afternoon?

СAPTIVE It was starting to get light. The drone left us sitting in the wood line.

СAPTIVE It was already starting to get light. He said to sit down, he would tell us what to do then. He was going to fly away, he flew in and flew off. 

At the wood line he said, sit down, I told him on the walkie-talkie that the wood line was bare and we were visible. This went on for about a minute, then I heard a drone hovering over us.

I asked him if it was hovering over us, he said it had already left. So I heard a click and an explosion. It was a drop. I told him we were being hit. I started to climb out of this mattress, I barely got out, then I freed Leha, got a knife, cut this mattress.

We started running away from the drones, from the drops, because there were a lot of drops, a lot of drones. Just clouds of them. He couldn't figure out what to do. He was saying go this way, go that way.

I said, we need cover, we don't know anything on this terrain, where to go, where to run.

Stand there, sit under the trees, but there are no trees. There are no trees. There's nowhere to hide, nowhere to hide. A clear field, corpses lying around.

BUTUSOV Whose corpses?

СAPTIVE  soldiers of the 123rd Brigade.

BUTUSOV How many were there?

СAPTIVE A lot

BUTUSOV Are these the people who came before you, these previous groups?

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV Does Zadnyi (Greedy) send them all by drone too?

СAPTIVE  I'm not sure if it was him personally, but it's possible. At least they sent them

BUTUSOV There were only corpses, there were no positions with live Russian soldiers?

СAPTIVE There was no one there.

In general, we ran away from the drones for about three minutes.

Then there was another drop. Leha was wounded. He found a small trench covered with branches. He said he would not go anywhere else.

I told him to come with me. We have to hide, we have to take cover. He says, 'I'm not going anywhere. I hid with him.

He said he was hit hard in the back. He could still walk, but he said he refused to go.

BUTUSOV Did you examine his wound?

СAPTIVE We didn't have time. It was all directly under the drops, under the drone work. So I went to find cover. Found a trench that led to this Iron. There I found a trench covered with boards. There was a drone flying behind me. Made a few more drops, then another, another. Greedy tells me, he flew a new drone.

He says you're thrashing about, jump into a trench.

BUTUSOV He`s funny. He watches you run, dodges. Why are you thrashing about?

СAPTIVE I waited for another drop to be made on me. And when I saw the drone fly away, I went down into the trench. This one was covered. I figured I'd been spotted. That's where I went down anyway, because there was still a bunch of drops on me. There were a couple of F.P.V.s that hit me.

I lost communication completely. Nobody was answering my walkie-talkie. I was asking what to do, where to take cover, where to go, where someone was. And there was no one around. I was alone. I had no water, no food. Because we dropped our backpacks when we ran from the drone. Then another FPV flew in. I lost consciousness. And when I woke up, the Freedom Fighters came at night. They came because they had some casualties. They came for their own, found me. They offered me a surrender. I surrendered.

BUTUSOV How long were you there on your own? In this position?

СAPTIVE It all happened in less than a day. There were none of our people there. Just the dead. 

BUTUSOV No one has come to your help in 24 hours?

СAPTIVE No.

BUTUSOV Did Greedy fulfil his promise to drop food and water from the drone?

СAPTIVE No. There was no connection, there was nothing.

BUTUSOV And then he stopped getting in touch?

СAPTIVE I shouted into walkie-talkie. The answer was silence.

BUTUSOV Yes.

СAPTIVE Later in captivity I became aware of Lekha's fate, that he had been killed. 

Accordingly, I was left alone in that position. The only person alive.

BUTUSOV What a cautionary tale you have had.

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV A cautionary tale. The Ukrainian flag was ripped down and the Russian flag was raised.

And so the Russian commanders of you, 10 years passed, took your childhood friend, sent you into battle, abandoned you. Now you are a human symbol of the Russian world. You could have just been eliminated there on the spot, as you understand. Because no one knows whether you surrendered or not.

And the Ukrainians with whom you fought, and whom you did not want in Luhansk, saved your life. But the Russians that you brought to Luhansk, they just threw you to the slaughter. Because what you said, you realize that you were just the cannon fodder that everyone on the Internet writes about.

СAPTIVE  Yes.

BUTUSOV Well, I can't help but ask you a question. In 2014, you organised such anti-Ukrainian demonstrations. Did you like it?

СAPTIVE I think, obviously, no.

BUTUSOV Well, I'd like to hear you say that, because the results of a ten-year experiment. Ten years have passed. How do you assess what you have gone through in these 10 years? Was it worth it to rip down the Ukrainian flag with your Russian friends?

СAPTIVE I just hope that the war will end.

BUTUSOV You don't want to answer. Well, it was worth it, wasn't it? You should have done it. 

СAPTIVE When was youthful maximalism?

BUTUSOV Well, I'm asking you now. Now. You are now an adult, you have been at war for 10 years, you have a child, a family, you have seen everything in life. And now, for example, you are being transferred back to Luhansk on 4 March. And your Russian friends are with you. Will you go back to rip down the Ukrainian flag, knowing what you, your friend Lekha and your other friends will have to go through?

СAPTIVE  No.

BUTUSOV What's your mother's name?

СAPTIVE Viktoria.

BUTUSOV Viktoria. How did she feel about you serving in the army?

СAPTIVE  Negative.

BUTUSOV What did she say?

СAPTIVE  That you need to leave.

BUTUSOV It's a bit late, of course, she explained it to you. It's a bit late. Well, what about the other activist from the Luhansk Guard, Anastasia Pyaterikova, how did she communicate with you when you left, when they went AWOL from unit, how does she communicate with you now?

СAPTIVE  Yes, we are in touch.

BUTUSOV How did she react to the fact that you left the war? She writes about you as a hero.

СAPTIVE They took it well. Again, heroism, for whom it is purely heroic, is purely heroic. Heroism is different for everyone.

BUTUSOV That's understandable. You came to the fore then, you were in all the videos, everywhere. I thought that even Anastasia was expecting you to be different, to be supporters of the Russian world in Luhansk, to not leave the unit, to not run away from the war, but to fight to the end.

СAPTIVE I was fought to the end.

BUTUSOV You went AWOL for a year and a half.

СAPTIVE Yes, I did, I had my reasons for doing so.

BUTUSOV Yes, you see, I want to tell you that not everyone who knows you here feels this way.

СAPTIVE Not everyone is happy, that's understandable. Everyone has their own opinion, everyone has made their own choice. I made my choice, you made your choice.

BUTUSOV Everyone makes their own choices, but not everyone breaks the laws of the country they live in. That's the difference between you and me. I didn't rip down the flags of some other country or my country's flags. You did, didn't you? And maybe you should have, well, you've thought about it a lot in 10 years. But you continued to serve in the Russian Federation. And you know, there's just a moral question here. Do you know the parents of your childhood friend? 

СAPTIVE Yes.

BUTUSOV What are their names?

СAPTIVE I don't remember them by name, I just remember them from my childhood.

BUTUSOV You sticked out their sons necks with your comrades who organized this in Luhansk in March and April. You helped the occupation of Russian troops and sticked out their son neck. You helped the occupation of Russian troops and brought their son to death. Now they are left without a son. And many other people from Luhansk, refugees, I have friends from Luhansk in Kyiv. They fled, had to leave their homes. Because people like you brought the war and Russia here to Ukraine. I don't know, to you...

СAPTIVE I understand all that, but again, you are overstating my role. I was just a young man who was young, forward, revolutionary romance and all that. I wasn't afraid to just say what I thought, to say my opinion.

BUTUSOV But in Ukraine you were not afraid to speak out, but in Russia you are afraid to speak out.

СAPTIVE I told you.

BUTUSOV You are in captivity in Ukraine, you are now back in Ukraine. You are saying this in Ukraine. Should you have said this in Russia?

СAPTIVE it would have struck me in Russia, too. 

BUTUSOV When would it struck you? You were sent to be slaughtered, you were not supposed to come back from that attack. When would it have strucked you in Russia? You silently, obediently took four miserable magazines and led your childhood friend to the slaughter. And just there Ukrainians saved your life after what you had done. But they could not have done it, of course. But Ukrainians saved your life. And commander Greedy did not come to help you. 

BUTUSOV Wouldn't you like to apologise to your fellow countrymen, Luhansk residents, who disagreed with you, who wanted Ukraine to exist, would you not like to apologise to them? Or do you think it's the right thing to do?

СAPTIVE Well, again, everyone has their own ideology, everyone has their own way. Because you understand perfectly well that not everyone in Luhansk wanted Ukraine, and there were just as many people on the squares. I think you clearly realize that there were not Russians there, not only Russians. There were a lot of Luhansk residents. 

СAPTIVE why did it work out in Luhansk and Donetsk? I mean, they turned out to be people's republics. And why didn't they succeed, say, in Kharkiv? Although it also borders on Russia. Why not in other regions? Because the people, the majority, were in favour of Russia. There. It works out.

BUTUSOV Maybe because the commander of your brigade, Denis Ivanov, along with thousands of other Russian soldiers came to Ukraine, gave you Russian mortars, Russian tanks that you took pictures with, mortar that you fired from. And that's why other Ukrainian people didn't have the opportunity to show their freedom of speech to demonstrate. Maybe because you with your Russian friends in this video are looking at the Ukrainian demonstration, saying, here come f#ckers.

Those are your words, right? But we will shoot at them. And that's why, perhaps, not all people were ready, like you, to act in a gangster way. Has it ever crossed your mind? 

СAPTIVE Perhaps, but again, take Kharkiv. Where the majority had won, Ukraine remained. In Kharkiv, I think you have heard too, they already wanted to make the Kharkiv People's Republic in the beginning. 

BUTUSOV Russian tanks were the first to enter Luhansk. That's why. That's why they didn't enter Kharkiv, but they did enter Luhansk. That's the only difference. There were also pro-Russian demonstrations there. But in May, you had a military operations against Ukrainian troops there.

СAPTIVE It happened almost simultaneously, because I remember there was a  satellite radio link-up with the DPR and Kharkiv. We were communicating. Well, Kharkiv is how long? A day or two, or what?

BUTUSOV We are talking about your own behaviour here. Yes, there were people everywhere, something happened everywhere. But it was you who invited Russian citizens to Ukraine. You specifically, not other Luhansk residents. Your friend Lekha, who stayed forever in this wooded area near Spirne, your friend Lekha did not bring them, but you did.

So you were thinking about something, planning for the future, wondering what would happen next.

And after you did that, you fought for 10 years. You were not a little boy anymore, romantic romance, I think, when you went to the second contract in 2019, you already had and you already knew what war was, and you fought for all this voluntarily. And Leha and tens of thousands of other people died for you. All this is because you also took part in these actions.

That's why, knowing a lot of Luhansk residents who were forced to leave their homes in Luhansk, I'm asking you a question. Would you like to apologise to the people who were not going to kill anyone there, invite some foreigners to overthrow the Ukrainian government? Would you like to apologise to them?

СAPTIVE I would like to. I'm sorry that someone had to leave their home. That someone's plans for life were disrupted.

BUTUSOV People lost their lives. Tens of thousands of people lost their lives.

It was a game for you, for 10 years. Then, you see, when you felt bad in the war, you just ran away from it. Other people could not escape. They died forever in these wood lines. And now they are forced to fight with you. Here are the people who came from different regions of Ukraine, including Donbas, who are fighting here in these positions, who gave up their families to stop you, because you are just silently sent to local assaults. Someone has to defend Ukraine from people like you, because after Luhansk you will do the same in other cities. Russian World.

СAPTIVE Everything will return to normal one day anyway.

BUTUSOV But not for the dead.

СAPTIVE Not for the dead. You see, we can argue here for a long time, who is right and who is guilty, but again, we are simple people and let's say this: if there were no us, there would be others. 

BUTUSOV Well, you know, that's what Hitler's Nazis said at the Nuremberg trials. They said that we were carrying out the Fuhrer's orders, and if we hadn't done it, someone else would have done it. That's exactly what you said.

СAPTIVE We didn't shoot civilians, loot or pillage.

BUTUSOV You personally?

СAPTIVE I personally and the guys I know did not do that.

BUTUSOV Well, did you see what your artillery, your brigade, did to Rubizhne and Sievierodonetsk? Have you personally? Have you seen what you have destroyed these houses, these towns in general? Most of the houses there are destroyed.

СAPTIVE  I saw but...

BUTUSOV Yes, you personally did not? You advanced, and your artillery destroyed. You yourself told me that you saw a firing point and directed the artillery to the houses.

СAPTIVE But again, this is war.

And Ukraine, when we are also sitting, Ukrainian servicemen are also hitting us with artillery.

BUTUSOV Did Ukraine attack you?

СAPTIVE No.

BUTUSOV So you are the ones who came to Ukraine with artillery. You are commanded by Russian officers, you tell us about them yourself. The company commander is Russian, the battalion commander is Russian, your brigade commander Denis Ivanov is Russian. Russian artillery is firing on Ukrainian cities, you say, and Ukrainians too. So you shouldn't have come here then with the Russian army, and none of this would have happened. Your friend would have been alive, other people would have been alive, and you put them in line of fire up by your actions. So the question arises, are you sure that you are still right? You are sure that you did the right thing and that you, I asked you a question, would you have done the same thing 10 years ago, you didn't say no. Would you repeat it, yes, am I making a correct conclusion? 

СAPTIVE I can't answer this question because things have happened the way they have.

BUTUSOV Well, that's why there is a question of your life goals in general. You went all the way to the end, you are sure of that, and yet, when you had to fight, you still surrendered. You know that Russian servicemen, many of them, blow themselves up with grenades, shoot themselves to the last moment. It's all Russian propaganda that shows that they are good men, they died for Russia. Then I have a question, why do you say that you should have gone forward, but here you decided to surrender? 

СAPTIVE What choice did I have?

BUTUSOV To fight for Russian peace? You brought him here, to the Luhansk region, yourself. Why did you bring him here to surrender to the Ukrainians? You could have done this in 2014, and there would have been less grief.

BUTUSOV Why did you give up? We should have gone all the way, like you did at the regional council. What was the reason why you still raised your hands?

СAPTIVE There was no other way out.

BUTUSOV Well, you have to accept the fight, you came there with a machine gun.

СAPTIVE I don't know how to answer your question, I'm trying to formulate it.

BUTUSOV Let's wait.

СAPTIVE Who doesn't want to live?

BUTUSOV Everyone wants to live, people. They are all peaceful people. That's why they don't rip down flags, organise anti-state protests, invite citizens of another state to commit crimes, carry guns, threaten other citizens, join a foreign army and live peacefully. But that's not what you did. You chose a different path. 

СAPTIVE  You said it yourself, there is cause and effect. The choice I made then is one that I am still sorting out, to put it bluntly. Everyone chose their side. I chose my side.

BUTUSOV You don't feel sorry for Lecha, do you?

СAPTIVE It's a pity, of course.

BUTUSOV Still, when the choice was to die for Russia, even if it was stones from the sky, as long as it was Russia, you chose to live better.

СAPTIVE  You understand that I could easily have been in the shoes of Lekha or the other guys. Very easily. If any of the guys surrendered in such a situation, I would be in favour with both hands, because I am against deaths. On either side, because the war will end, and people will not be returned.

BUTUSOV Well, you've been at war for 10 years.

СAPTIVE  I didn't fight in the war in a general position.

BUTUSOV If a person does not want someone to die, he does not organise an anti-state coup, betray his comrades in the military and go to war in a foreign army.

СAPTIVE  Well, look, let's do this way.

BUTUSOV Let's do this way

СAPTIVE Maidan, I remember when fire was opened on Maidan, on the demonstrators. Nobody wanted to die either. 

BUTUSOV Who opened fire?

СAPTIVE  Well, these people, whoever they are, the parties of the regions or whoever, these are the pro-government ones. None of those who were at the demonstration wanted deaths.

BUTUSOV Yes.

СAPTIVE  But it worked out because everyone made their own choice.

BUTUSOV Yes, they were Ukrainian citizens in the centre of the city of Ukraine, in the capital of Ukraine, you know, what's the difference.

And you brought here a foreign army, a foreign country, yes, and you essentially became with the Party of Regions, which opened fire on Maidan, you became in line with them in Luhansk. The Party of Regions wanted to regain power under Putin's cover, the leader of the Party of Regions, Yanukovych, appealed to the Russian Federation on March 1 to bring troops into Ukraine, all the channels broadcast this. And then people like you were sent on March 4 to provoke this situation, to plant the Russian flag. And then Russian troops came in, and you know very well that Russian troops, the same rapid response task forces, Batman, Bednov, whom you know, in whose security your friend served, you know that Russians were in charge there, Russians eliminated him, and they commanded all the units there.

СAPTIVE  There were no Russians, as far as I know, Bednov was a policeman once.

BUTUSOV Perhaps he was the chief of staff of the 4th Motorized Rifle Brigade of the Russian Armed Forces.

СAPTIVE  But, accordingly, as it is the Russian Armed Forces, there was no Russian Armed Forces then, there was the People's Militia of the Luhansk People's Republic, the People's Militia.

BUTUSOV And who was in command of the army corps of the People's Militia, what officers were there, who gave you with weapons, you don't know, do you? That they were all Russians, that Wagner was with you at the airport and in the Debaltseve operation in Luhansk, right? Wagner, what kind of serviceman was he?

СAPTIVE  Wagner, it's a PMC, a private military company.

BUTUSOV Yes, but what kind of soldiers, what country?

СAPTIVE They were Russian citizens.

BUTUSOV Citizens of the Russian Federation, yes.

СAPTIVE  It is a private military company.

BUTUSOV And the paratroopers at the airport, the 76th Division, who were there, and the two airborne armored infantry fighting vehicles that were seized with the documents, you didn't see them, did you?

СAPTIVE There were no in Luhansk in 2014.

BUTUSOV Have you seen any Russian troops?

СAPTIVE  No, I only saw that there was a militia, that's all.

BUTUSOV And the fact that this militia was then commanded by a Russian officer in your brigade, that didn't give you anything to think about? You thought he came on his own, like your friends, didn't you? Colonel Denis Ivanov came on his own, probably a guy like you, someone called him, and he came from the Russian army to command you here. On his own. Probably Russia had nothing to do with it, it's just that the Russian army came to Donbas by itself, by invitation. Maybe on a call? 

СAPTIVE Again, in 2014, if you mean that we fought as part of Russia, shoulder to shoulder with the Russian army, there was no such thing. It was a militia, a scattered group. 

BUTUSOV Just lots of Russian volunteer fighters. With good knowledge of Russian weapons, command, control. With Russian communication, with weapons. 

СAPTIVE Objectively, who's going to be volunteer fighter? Just someone who is, I don't know, a designer. 

BUTUSOV Where did you get this tank, the one you were photographed on in Luhansk?

СAPTIVE  I don't know about this one.

BUTUSOV And the fact that you had more than a hundred of these tanks there in 2014, where did they all come from?

СAPTIVE If I had been involved in procurement, moving in some high circles, maybe I would have known.

BUTUSOV All members of the Waffen SS said the same thing as you at the Nuremberg trials. I was following orders, I didn't know anything, I didn't see anything. I personally did not shoot, but it all collapsed on its own, people died, and I was seemingly innocent.

The other would have followed the command.

What subject does your mum teach?

СAPTIVE English language.

BUTUSOV English, wow.

СAPTIVE I understand that Ukraine is angry with us.

BUTUSOV You came to kill Ukrainians, of course. You talked about Luhansk there, and now you're striking all over Ukraine, Russian troops with passports like yours are invading. Of course, they are evil, to put it mildly.

Yes, because we warned you not to do that then, not to invite the enemy into your house. You did it, you were one of those who were at the forefront of inviting Russia here. Now this is the result of your actions.

You can turn now to your comrades in arms, to your mother, say a few words to them.

Tell them why you survived at all.

СAPTIVE Mum, hi. I love you, I love Lena, I love my daughter. I miss you very much. I hope I'll come back. I'd like to say hello to Zhadnyi and Chugun. Will you at least sleep well later? And to some other people who sent us. We had promised that we would come back. God willing, that we will.

We know that those who are mobilised from Donbas are not exchanged by Russia at all, because those who betrayed Ukraine are simply garbage for the Russians and expendable for the Russian command. However, we hope that after this interview, an exception will be made, and Prokopiv will be exchanged for the captured Ukrainian soldiers we need to save.