Petro Poroshenko: Coal case was initiated by Bakanov, prepared by Naumov, and investigated by Kulinich, who was arrested for treason
On February 12, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy imposed sanctions on Petro Poroshenko. The measures against the opposition leader and the European Solidarity faction include asset freezes, a ban on economic activity, and the revocation of titles and awards.
According to Zelenskyy, we are talking about billions of funds that Poroshenko and Medvedchuk allegedly withdrew jointly abroad, and this was recorded by financial monitoring.
On 14 February, the ES faction in the parliament blocked the work of the Verkhovna Rada, claiming repression.
Censor.NET talked to Petro Poroshenko to find out more about the consequences of sanctions, the essence of the coal case, whether sanctions are a preparation for the elections and what Ukraine should do with Trump.
– Let's start with sanctions because it is obvious that this topic has stirred up society and clearly has political overtones. As a matter of fact, did you know that such a measure was being prepared against you? Were there any preliminary, perhaps investigative actions that could have led you to believe that this option might be used?
– Did I know that? Yes, I did. I think I had known it since 2020 or 2021. They lived and dreamed of imposing sanctions. At first, they wanted to push it through the bill on oligarchs, but they backed off because of a very strong reaction from the Venice Commission and the European Commission. Then they pinned their hopes on criminal cases—because all sorts of their idiots claimed they had secret but supposedly damning evidence—only for all these materials to fall apart one by one.
I was hoping that there would be no sanctions anymore, because I was convinced they were shooting themselves in the foot with this…
– Why?
– In fact, there is no reason to. But the main thing is that we are going through the most difficult tests.
We have, and I say this as someone who has returned from Washington, extremely serious problems with communication with the new Trump team. Government communicators, including Yermak, are simply not accepted there, and sending them there is a mockery of Americans, regardless of my attitude to Yermak. You just have to know that you have 10 channels of communication, and you choose the best asset. And when you find yourself in a situation where you have one channel of communication, you become hostage to people's attitudes.
– We will come back to this American issue later, as I see it as a significant part of our conversation. But first, let's talk about sanctions. I want to clarify how the sanctions have affected your foundation, your business, and ultimately your life.
Could this really lead to the dissolution of the European Solidarity party?
– If we look at the sanctions situation over the past 24 hours, it is quite simple.
The sanctions are unconstitutional and extrajudicial. They come with an implicit label, written in big letters: "I hate you." Zelenskyy has hated me for six years, and a president has no right to behave this way.
The second issue is the elections. In his mind, he is already afraid that he won’t win, so he needs to eliminate competitors or opponents. And at this point, all limits are off.
And the third, perhaps the most important aspect.
I have always believed that a president’s priority should be to act as a statesman first and a politician second. Only then should they worry about ratings and future prospects. To me, being a statesman means following the rules. Or the law. And this is the foundation of democracy. I am proud to be the only president who has conducted two presidential campaigns, a parliamentary campaign, and local elections, all of which were assessed by the OSCE as exemplary.
Just yesterday I met with the entire delegation headed by the President of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly. They told me about it.
Today, elections begin with sanctions because they have effectively become a kind of signal for launching the election campaign.
I did everything in my power to stop our government. I spoke about unity, I emphasized unity to the outside world, I said that regardless of who demands what, we must now either form a coalition or make very difficult decisions for society and maintain this unity—otherwise, we will be torn apart.
Instead, we were offered chaos. Chaos is their way. Choose your scenario: the Russian one, the Belarusian one (I mean the elimination of opponents), or the Georgian one.
– I would still like to hear the answer: did the sanctions work or not? What happened after they were imposed?
– In fact, it's very simple. Yesterday, I was at the front. I had no idea that all the soldiers were so deeply engaged in this information issue. They read that I was prohibited from purchasing military equipment.
Tell me, please, what spy, while preparing the materials, wrote that Poroshenko was banned from buying dual-use military products? Who benefited from this? Is our army fully supplied with everything it needs?
– Obviously, they see this as a way of earning the authority and respect of the military and, accordingly, some electoral points...
– You think too highly of them. You know what my version is? It's simpler. They just copied positions from the most extensive sanctions list.
And they didn’t just ban Poroshenko from buying and selling—they also prohibited him from using radio frequencies. You're using them right now (points to the phone).
He is banned from moving around Ukraine. Warships are prohibited from entering Ukraine’s territorial waters.
– So, did you have a destroyer of some kind?
– You're quite skeptical of me. I would take an aircraft carrier.
Let's continue. All this nonsense written there has stripped me of my state awards. Do you know what my most recent award was? In 1998 or 1999… 27 years ago. I was a laureate of the State Prize in Science and Technology.
This award is granted by the Academy of Sciences. And at that time, it was important to me.
And on a personal level, how did I feel it? Yesterday, I was returning from the front. (By the way, the mood among the military has changed dramatically. If Zelensky heard this, he wouldn’t be pleased.) So, we stopped at a gas station.
There’s a woman named Olenka. I always treat her to coffee—it’s our little tradition. I take out my phone to pay, tap it, and it says: "Your card has been canceled." In other words, all my personal accounts, cards, and transfers were blocked. Immediately. By the National Bank.
– I understand that you used to buy military aid through a charity fund. Does that mean it won't happen anymore?
– I can't give money personally right now. Let me explain what this means. I have not cost the state a single penny since I was elected as a deputy in 1998. That is, I transferred all my money and salary to a charity fund. I haven't even hired any assistants for many years. I think for about 15 years.
I am still the only People`s Deputy who has no assistants and does not cost the state a penny. My salary used to be automatically transferred to a charity fund, and other income to a charity fund, and that was it. Now these options are blocked.
– What about your business? What about it?
They are trying to seize property like gangsters. First and foremost, they attempted to take over Priamyi and Channel 5. We had prepared for this, and 4–5 years ago, we actually reached an agreement with the staff to transfer ownership to them. We provided them with a 10-year loan to pay for the channel package.
They either don’t know about this or are deliberately ignoring it. Because beyond purging political opponents and competitors, they are trying to ensure that only their Telegram channels remain.
The second issue is corporate raiding—seizing assets to block any opportunity to finance opposition projects or an election campaign. Let’s call things by their names.
– The fact that you are on this list alongside Medvedchuk, Kolomoiskyi, Boholiubov, and Zhevaho—what does this list mean to you?
– It is clear proof of the idiocy of those who compiled it. After all, sanctions against Medvedchuk were already imposed in 2021. In 2023, there were additional sanctions, including the revocation of his citizenship.
And just to reinforce their mythologema about Medvedchuk, they decided to impose sanctions on him for a third time.
– But here, one could once again indulge in conspiracy theories and say that you, too, were sanctioned with errors—your TIN was entered with 11 digits.
– I hate to disappoint you, but I believe my lawyers are holding a press conference right now. And there, they will announce that the document was unlawfully altered. Manipulations were carried out with PDF files—without a separate NSDC meeting, without a new submission from the Cabinet of Ministers. They simply falsified and modified the document.
And if you pay close attention and check when the file was changed, you’ll see that it was modified today.
And this is already a matter of criminal liability. Because just imagine—today they change the law this way, and tomorrow they do the same with election results.
– Will you take the case to court?
– Yes. Because what they are doing is pure chaos. The law explicitly states that sanctions cannot be applied to Ukrainian citizens who are on the territory of Ukraine.
There is a clearly established international legal principle that sanctions cannot be applied to citizens of friendly states. Instead, in such cases, extradition requests can be made. This ensures a fully transparent and effective process for bringing charges and judicially determining guilt.
It seems to me that I am the only person in Ukraine who is free to move around, and at any time, the authorities had the opportunity to take any legal action, but through a transparent judicial process. Sanctions are imposed only on foreign states hostile to Ukraine and on foreign legal entities registered in those states.
When individuals reside in a given territory and hold citizenship of, say, Russia or Belarus, an investigation cannot be ensured because those states will simply refuse to extradite them. This necessitates restricting their activities to prevent further harm to Ukraine.
But what is happening here? We are pursuing political opponents as if there were no more pressing matters. I know what is happening in the Pokrovsk, Kupiansk, and Kursk directions. The National Security and Defense Council should be focused on the country's defense. There are critical issues that demand attention.
I believe that Trump deserves Zelenskyy’s attention in preparing for a meeting with him. He should be preparing for a phone call, a trip to Munich, and a meeting with Vance... There are pressing issues with NATO, funding, and arms—across the board.
Instead, the president spent the entire previous day focused solely on imposing sanctions against Poroshenko. He went to the Cabinet of Ministers, where his initiative was rejected, then to law enforcement agencies, where he faced further refusals. So, he found an idiot—Major Pronin (the sanctions were imposed based on data from the Financial Monitoring Service, headed by Pronin – ed.). Pronin then wrote some incoherent nonsense under dictation and submitted it to the government. He was subsequently introduced into the NSDC just for this purpose—to bring this absurdity before the Council. Then Zelenskyy took this nonsense to Khmelnytskyi and made an absolutely ludicrous statement.
– For you to return the funds you allegedly transferred abroad...
– That’s not a problem. The president claims that you, the citizens, will be shocked when you hear the information I received from the Financial Monitoring Service. We've been waiting for 24 hours. Where is the disclosure?
What did we see? That we supposedly raised money from people, promised to allocate it to the army, but instead siphoned it elsewhere or used it to finance political parties. Tania, I get the impression that they first fabricated this nonsense through their Telegram channels, then read it themselves and believed it.
And then, acting on their own fabricated narrative, they took measures. The Poroshenko Charitable Foundation has existed for 28 years. In all that time, I have not accepted a single donation from any individual.
– So, it's personally yours?
– It is funded exclusively, 100%, by me. There were instances when we received donations of 500 or 1,000 hryvnias. I returned them. With a recommendation: if you want to support, there is "Sprava Hromad," "Come Back Alive," and others. The foundation simply has a different policy. I’m shocked that you didn’t know this because it means their campaign—the claim that Poroshenko takes money from people, stashes it in offshore accounts, and profits from it—is working.
– I took the president's words more as referring not to the fund, but to the overall operations of your companies.
– It says fund. As for enterprises, the purpose of entrepreneurial activity, the goal of an enterprise, is to make a profit.
– I am aware of this. At the very least, I was lectured on this by the heads of a few arms importers when I mentioned the high prices of ammunition.
- In fact. The only difference is that I am not a state-owned special importer; I do not have a single penny of state funds anywhere. I didn’t even acquire any of my enterprises through privatization; I have bought all of them throughout my life via the secondary market.
I believe this is also not widely known.
But one way or another, the decision pertains to funds. The word used is "funds," not enterprises.
– Maybe they meant a blind trust by the fund?
– Excuse me, a trust is a trust, a fund is a fund. And a blind trust, Tania, is Rothschild.
It is the largest, most reputable organization. And to this day, my blind trust is still managed by Rothschild managers. And that’s why it was done.
Because if I pick up the phone now, call and say, give me the information, I will be told, sorry, you have no right to it. Let alone any decision-making. I also withdrew from the final beneficiaries immediately after my presidential term ended, and only my family members remain there.
But I emphasize once again, there is no mention of a trust in the text, there is no mention of enterprises, special exporters, or anything else—it says fund. And this fund supports the army. We are rapidly approaching the figure of 7 billion.
Every month, I contribute an average of 150 million UAH. This is my money. I can spend it however I wish. Every week I am on the frontlines.
I am not obligated to spend it on the army or on IDPs. But I consider it my duty. I can allocate 20 percent of the foundation's funds to maintain the foundation’s staff.
Instead, I have only one person in my foundation who receives an average salary. I don’t spend anything elsewhere.
Once, a group of young people came to me. They said that they had many requests from organizations of IDPs, volunteers, and veterans. How should we handle this, how should we allocate money? I told them: I don’t have the time to filter who to give it to and who not to. Because it’s emotional, it’s very subjective. Please organize transparent, open grant competitions. Create the best independent commission to distribute these grants.
Then, the foundation will simply transfer funds to those who win the grants for support. That’s it. And that’s what they did.
I have not transferred a single penny to any party over all these years. Although… now I’m thinking maybe there were some expenses during the election campaign. But I’m not sure about that.
So, I am proud to be the largest donor to the Armed Forces. There are volunteers, but they collect money from other people. Ordinary people don’t have money right now, so, as a rule, it’s other businesses that contribute. What kind of businesses are these? Sometimes, they are much bigger than mine. But they collect money from all over the country, while I fund the foundation with my own money. Or rather, our family’s money. As long as Marina trusts me, I have such opportunities. I want to emphasize this on February 14th.
And now, as the largest donor, I hear accusations that I don’t give enough to the Armed Forces, and it would be nice if I gave something back.
Once again, I have given UAH 7 billion since the start of the full-scale war, and almost UAH 12 billion since 2014. Friends, let someone try to compete with me.
– The last question is about sanctions. What will be the actions of your lawyers?
– The first thing we did was to ask Major Pronin. "Please give us the nonsense you provided to the NSDC and the government. You have to say it". We will see what happens next.
– On other points from the above. The meeting with Lavrov, where you talked about extending the lease of the Black Sea Fleet.
– This is another "beautiful" one. If I’m not mistaken, we’re talking about the situation in 2009.
About 17 years ago.
As soon as I was appointed foreign minister, I had a visit to the US, a meeting with Hillary Clinton and a visit to Moscow to see Lavrov. Back then, we had a blocked economy, no negotiations, no contacts.
I arrive, and we are told: "Friends, let’s discuss urgent amendments to the basic agreement on the Black Sea Fleet." And listen to what I said. I come out and say: "The Ukrainian side insists on strict adherence to the basic agreement, which expires in 2017. No changes will be made to it—this is what I’m saying. If you need to discuss any details, specifically the procedure, the algorithm, or the withdrawal, create a working group. And stop communicating with us through 'TASS is authorized to speak.' Within the working group, both you and we can address questions about the algorithm for implementing the agreement, that’s all."
It seems to me that Zelensky’s team didn’t know when the basic agreement would expire. So they saw something in the clip and decided to move forward with the deal.
– The key issue currently being discussed in the context of sanctions is the coal case, which was initiated by the State Bureau of Investigation in 2022.
– In fact, this case was registered in 2016.
– I honestly tried to recall the entire chronology of events, although I remember it as a conflict with Kolomoiskyш over the Tsentrenergo supply market. Now you are being mentioned in the context of the NSDC decision. Can you tell us how this discussion unfolded?
– I remember it well. I had a report from the Prosecutor General and the Head of the Security Service that a corrupt contract had been signed at a price more than twice the market price by the Deputy Minister of Energy. They reported it directly to me at the National Security and Defense Council. My position was to suspend the contract, investigate the case, conduct an expert examination, and report the results.
– As far as I remember, there was even a version that it wouldn’t be South African coal at all...
– I was told that they had bought garbage at the price of coal, laundered the money, and were bringing it here.
In addition. This coal was not enough. It would not have solved anything in our situation. It was a test batch to steal.
Later, when we returned to this case, there were official reports from the prosecutor's office and KSRIFE (Kyiv Scientific Research Institute of Forensic Expertise) that it was rubbish, it did not burn.
– But then they were transporting coal from mines in the temporarily occupied territory. One of the mines there was re-registered to a Kyiv address, but it was actually in the TOT.
– The position was this: we have coal that, firstly, is twice as cheap. Secondly, it comes from Ukrainian mines, mined by Ukrainian miners who have accounts in Ukrainian banks in Kyiv, which are re-registered in Kyiv.
I found out later that this was not the president's issue at all.
– The SBI named Serhii Kuziara, who was in active contact with the leaders of the so-called LDPR, as one of the organisers of the schemes who was arrested. Do you know him at all?
– I’ve never seen him in my life.
– Because I re-read his interview with Ekonomichna Pravda from 2022, and he said that the last time he saw you in person was in 2012, when you held a meeting at the Ministry of Economy.
– Maybe, but I don’t remember that. And by the way, they say that he was somehow well-regarded under this government.
– As far as I remember the materials of my colleagues, they allegedly wanted to use him or hold him "hostage" for negotiations on coal with Belarus after 2020, in which Kolomoiskyi could again be involved.
– Perhaps. Anyway, I want to emphasize one thing about this case. I fully support the government's actions.
If a mountain of garbage is being shipped to us, we need to stop it. At the same time, I was given the task of intensifying the purchase of coal from Australia. I took the minister with me, and during a meeting with the prime minister, we held negotiations, and all contracts were opened.
Then we ramped up the purchase of coal from the USA, and thanks to this purchase, we actually established the right, effective relationship with President Trump.
The first thing I said to Trump was that we would have a contract with your Pennsylvania Coal Miners. And we will go with you, Mr. President, to Pennsylvania.
Because I want us to get coal from you, as we have no anthracite from anywhere. The third point was to immediately convert all power plants from anthracite coal to gas. And we immediately allocated Japanese and European loans to do this.
The fourth point. Who can explain? The negotiations took place in November. The country was without coal.
And the alternative to not purchasing was to stop and freeze Ukraine. Any objective investigation would have shown, my friends, where there could have been treason if it was not the president’s business at all.
– Have you ever discussed the coal situation with Medvedchuk?
No. We met only on two occasions. The first topic of conversation was that we could get in touch with Putin only through Medvedchuk. Not through Zurabov (the Russian ambassador) or anyone else. And when it came to getting Putin to pick up the phone, unfortunately, this was the only possible position. Putin proposed it, and he discussed it in meetings with Merkel and Hollande.
The second position was the prisoners swap. When our negotiators realized we had hit a dead end, we turned to him.
The third position is that during Kuchma's presidency, Medvedchuk attacked me as head of the administration because I once broke up his faction. When Solidarity joined Yushchenko. We dropped party affiliation together with Yevhen Kyrylovych Marchuk.
Imagine it was 1998, when I had just been elected to parliament. For me, the faction with Kravchuk and Marchuk seemed very powerful. But as soon as I saw that Yevhen Kyrylovych was not happy, we came to an agreement and dropped party affiliation together.
And most importantly, when you start a political investigation or persecution, the main thing is not to turn on yourself. When someone tells me that you bought Ukrainian coal from a Ukrainian mine somewhere, I apologize, dear friends, but did you not hesitate to buy $3 billion worth of Russian coal, pure Russian anthracite from the Kuzbass basin? And in 2020 and 2021, did you think it was perfectly normal to buy Russian electricity, which was called Belarusian electricity, for a billion dollars?
And please tell me, what about the extension of the Russian gas contract? I remind you that my contract was signed before me, in 2009, for 10 years (until 2019). I went to Stockholm and stopped the purchase. And they extended the contract for 5 more years, in 2019...
That is, electricity – one, coal – two, and now the purchase of nuclear units – three.
And the transit of Russian oil worth $7.5 billion.
– As for KhNPP, I think you have seen this post by Mariana Bezuhla, where you were accused of giving permission for the construction of the 3rd and 4th units.
– No, no.
I emphasize that when I said we need to complete the units, there was one small detail. It did not specify that we were using a Russian reactor. And our partner at that time was Westinghouse.
And this was another, I'll tell you a secret, subject of negotiations with Trump. And if our authorities were to decide now to enter into an agreement with American investors who would complete the power unit at their own expense and then own it, my vote would be with you.
Instead, people who have accumulated a sum exceeding $12-13 billion through contracts with oil, gas, electricity, and coal are following me to talk about a case that has nothing to do with the president.
Raise the case, raise the expert reports, make sure that the coal was not burning. And my impartiality was that the case started under my presidency.
–I saw somewhere a version that Medvedchuk could have testified against you. Is this true?
– I don't know about that. But it seems to me that they don't have anyone's testimony at all.
– Have you been questioned or not questioned about this case since 2022?
– There was a month when, according to Portnov’s scenario, I was supposed to be summoned to the SBI every day to create a show. And they did. Yes, friends, this case was led by Portnov, who is under US sanctions.
There are more than a hundred criminal cases against me now. Are they closed? No.
And who initiated most of these cases against me? Renat Kuzmin, Andriy Derkach, and this Portnov. And the only case, and here I need to be objective, was the coal case, which was initiated by Mr. Bakanov. It was prepared by Naumov (considered to be the "backing" of smuggling schemes and the former head of the SSU's wallet - ed.), and investigated by Kulinich, who was arrested for treason.
Bravo! And they will continue with this.
I'm not referring to Vasyl Maliuk, by the way, because I respect him as a special forces officer and someone who conducts operations.
But others... Friends, what do you think? You opened the case because Poroshenko appointed some judges four days late with the decree.
You haven’t appointed any judges for 3 years. You destroyed the judicial reform. You destroyed the public procurement system. You destroyed decentralization. You destroyed the system of corporate governance with independent boards.
You have destroyed everything that was done before you. And now you’re still looking for a black cat in a black room. Do you know why the coal case was opened and then nothing was done for 3 years? They hoped to find something else. But they didn’t.
– How many of your cases have been submitted to court?
– One. But not submitted. The investigation is complete.
In the rest, nothing has been completed. Among them is the signing of the Minsk agreements. There is also state treason there. There are proceedings regarding the Tomos and abuse of power. There is the Kerch Strait case, when I declared martial law after our ships were attacked.
And most importantly, there is a case of high treason in connection with the negotiations with Biden. It was opened based on statements made by individuals who are officially recognized as FSB agents and are now in Russia.
Everything there is on this level – just incredible nonsense. Criminal cases that are bound to fail.
– For many, the sanctions against you were a sign of the beginning of the election campaign. In your opinion, when are the elections in Ukraine likely to take place?
– Write it down - on 26 October this year.
– How do you draw this conclusion? Is this what our partners are dictating to us?
– No, based on sources from Censor.NET and Ukrainska Pravda. You know them, they are on Bankova Street.
According to our sources in law enforcement agencies. According to our sources at the "Ukraine" printing plant, which is currently calculating how many ballots are needed. According to our sources in the Central Election Commission, which is beginning to make changes to the voter register.
According to our sources in the Ministry of National Unity, they are opening their first office in Berlin, exclusively for election preparations.
– I'll add one more source. According to our sources in schools, they were instructed to locate ballot boxes
– That’s why I believe the elections will take place at the end of the year. What should they be tied to? According to the Constitution, parliamentary elections are scheduled for the end of the year, although they should have taken place two years ago. And at the end of October, local elections are also due.
The government's dream is to hold all elections simultaneously. But the Americans are not allowing this. Now, they are setting everything up to eliminate opponents and sneak back into power, undermining democracy, freedom, and electoral transparency—because they are afraid to lose power.
– Then it would be logical to cut off your funding and put you under criminal investigation. The same thing happened to Valerii Zaluzhnyi.
– That’s still to come.
-Have you been in contact with Zaluzhnyi?
– Of course.
– Did you talk about running for office?
– No, we did not discuss political issues because I am against elections. I believe there could be a situation where there is no place left to be elected to. I believe that the very existence of the state is now under threat.
– Look, in order for us to hold elections at all, we need some kind of truce with Russia and an end to martial law.
– If what is happening in Munich unfolds as it is now, unfortunately, it will be a disaster. Our fate will be decided without us. This cannot be allowed. I fought for the principle that there can be no negotiations about Ukraine without Ukraine. But now, Tania, they are happening without us.
– We can see this clearly from Trump's recent statements. Everything he has been saying in recent weeks is essentially an agenda dictated by Putin. Does this mean we have lost all contact with Trump's team?
– We never established them in the first place. I can offer you a version of why.
– Go ahead.
– We need people who have experience working with the Trump team to represent Ukraine. I met with National Security Advisor Mike Volz in December. Now in Munich, I was to meet with General Kellogg.
I will not reveal a secret if I tell you that I suggested to the MFA that ambassadors join our meetings to help coordinate directives. Because nothing is more important than negotiations with the Americans. Instead, they tried to block my meetings in December, but they failed.
Now, when I went to Washington, I had meetings at the State Department, in Congress — everywhere. And, of course, at the prayer breakfast.
They (Zelenskyy's team) do not yet have effective communication channels.
They are using the wrong people to build those channels. I emphasize once again that building communication channels with Mr. Yermak is either difficult or impossible.
– So, is it difficult for Mr. Yermak to build contacts because of his history with Rudy Giuliani five years ago?
– Not only that. He carries a toxic reputation. And no one wants to meet with him. There’s no motivation to engage with him.
There are people there who not only have a good attitude towards Ukraine but also know the situation in Ukraine. This applies to the Congress.
Relatively speaking, there are 100 Republicans in Congress who support Ukraine. They know what’s happening here, they understand the issues with democracy, they know Putin, they know these people. You might be surprised, but we don’t need to work with them—they already know everything.
Then there are 75, maybe 80 members who are firmly against Ukraine. No matter what you do, they will continue pushing narratives about Ukraine being a failed state, corrupt, a waste of money, and so on. For us, this means falling into Russia’s sphere of influence, putting our statehood at risk. But there’s no point in working with them either—it’s a waste of time.
The key group is about 30 to 40 congressmen who are undecided. All our efforts should be focused on them. I know their names, I know what matters to them. My team knows their staffers.
We need to get the message across about what’s happening and be persuasive. And for that, we need what? Parliamentary diplomacy. Anyone who’s willing should be working on it. Instead, Zelenskyy came out and said that half of Parliament had gone to the prayer breakfast. In reality, there were only 20 or 30 MPs there.
The vast majority of them weren’t even invited to the prayer breakfast. They went to a separate Ukrainian breakfast. Most of them just sat around. At most, they attended two or three meetings organized by the embassy.
Instead of allowing everyone who could contribute to speak, trusting them to represent Ukraine as statesmen, the authorities spent two days trying to prevent Poroshenko from attending the Munich conference. Instead of taking advantage of an event where 70 heads of state and government were present—50 of whom know Poroshenko personally. Instead of joining forces at a time when Ukraine is fighting for its survival.
– According to the Bankova version, you told our partners that elections needed to be held as soon as possible. Admit it—were you inciting them?
– That’s unbearable. It’s just incompetence, unprofessionalism. They don’t understand that if I were inciting international partners, I’d be shooting myself in the foot. You know why? Out of all my meetings, maybe 20-30% are confidential.
If I publicly say everywhere—including in interviews—that elections would be suicide, and then I come...and start pushing for them, no one will take me seriously. No one will talk to me. That’s a completely different kind of politics.
Not the kind of politics managed by five or six people.
– How much do you think your recent meeting with Mark Rutte influenced Bankova’s decision to block your trip to Munich?
– Honestly, I never could have imagined it would come to this.
Do you know what brought us together? Some think it was because of the MH17 case. Back then, I acted unexpectedly, and an unprecedented decision in international relations was made—when the country where the plane crash occurred handed over the investigation to another country. But I had no other choice. I couldn’t reach Biden for an hour because everyone assumed we had shot down the plane.
I needed a solution—something very creative, to put it mildly. I managed to get through to Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and proposed this option. I took a risk by handing it over. But I explained to the Ukrainian people that we had to be transparent and prove that it wasn’t us.
But in reality, Rutte and I grew closer during the ratification of the Association Agreement. Do you remember how that happened?
– We could have lost everything because of the referendum in the Netherlands.
– Yes. The Russians then took advantage of the newly adopted law on consultative referendums. The Association Agreement had to be withdrawn if at least one country failed to ratify it. For a politician, voting against the referendum’s outcome in parliament was political suicide.
So we were creative. Do you know what my main argument was? Less than 10% of the population participated in the vote, and less than 5% voted in favor.
This was the first referendum of its kind. I met with the King, and His Majesty stated that the referendum was purely advisory. I convinced him to publicly affirm that it was not legally binding.
Later, we uncovered an entire group of Russians posing as Ukrainians—270 people traveling across cities, telling locals: "We are Ukrainians, please don’t vote, we don’t want to join the EU."
So we sent our own people to confront them, speaking Ukrainian. They had no idea how to respond because they weren’t actually Ukrainians—they were Russians. We filmed everything and later made it public. Although this happened after the referendum, it proved that the vote was manipulated and that the 5% who voted were misled.
Thirdly, Rutte wasn’t from our political family, so I leveraged the European People’s Party and my socialist colleagues. When Rutte was convinced he didn’t have enough votes, he said something key: "Okay, my party will vote, but I don’t have enough votes beyond that." I told him: I’ll find them.
In the end, we won by just one vote. No one knows about that. But at that moment, he realized he could trust me.
Now, he is the NATO Secretary General. He fully supports Ukraine. He is a brilliant diplomat, a great statesman. We need to make the most of his goodwill.
– How will it all end now if there is no united force?
– Trump will say that losing territory is normal. They will not recognize it, but they will not defend it either.
The day after tomorrow, Trump will say that I promised Russia Ukraine would never join NATO. But what does Russia have to do with it? Our NATO membership is not something we should be discussing with Russia at all.
We can say that Ukraine must implement a certain number of reforms before becoming a NATO member. Yes, but not the way it is now.
– What would you say now?
– No compromises on sovereignty. We will never be a zone of Russian influence. Ukraine simply will not survive. The Ukrainian people will never accept this. No compromises on territory. We will never recognize lost territories. We do not trade land.
No compromises on the army. The so-called Istanbul madness—that we should limit the size of our military—is insanity. It means the death of Ukraine.
Fourth, no compromises on sanctions. Putin must have a reason to come to the negotiating table and fulfill what has been agreed upon.
And no compromises on our path to the EU. And NATO’s doors must remain open.
– But what if Trump ignores all this and one day simply stops supplying arms to Ukraine?
– He won't.
You need to understand history here. In the United States, there are winning leaders, and there are those who go down in history as losers. And it's not just about Afghanistan and Biden. Biden is not to blame. The withdrawal of U.S. troops was unprepared. And Ukraine helped Biden and the United States prove that we are, on the contrary, a symbol of victory.
The fact that we have endured is already a symbol of victory—to avoid another Afghanistan. And you can recall Iraq, Iran, Vietnam. Look, Nixon is remembered as the president who lost Vietnam.
So, Trump will never accept being the president who lost Ukraine. You have to understand his psychology.
– Then I'll ask you, how do you assess Trump's statements over the past week?
– What he is doing is essentially providing evidence for my claim about the lack of communication on our part. Conclusive evidence. Trump never reads briefs—no matter what is written for him. Trump is a man who places great trust in his intuition.
Biden is a man of values. No matter what you say, Biden stands for values. Trump is a man of results. Actions.
You can work with both. But you are guaranteed to lose if you don’t engage. My meetings with the esteemed National Security Advisor Volz, with General Kellogg—whose daughter is highly supportive of Ukraine—and with the distinguished Marco Rubio, who is staunchly anti-Russian and pro-Ukraine, showed me one thing: there is no Rubio plan, no Vance plan, no Kellogg plan. There is only Trump's plan. Can I tell you a secret? It has not been formed.
You have the opportunity to shape this plan—or not. Shaping it means that everyone who can, through those who have access—whether it’s a good-brother, father of the son-in-law, a son, or Rubio—must reach Trump and convince him.
If this does not happen and we miss the moment, if Ukraine is not there, Russia will be.
That is why I want to go to New York. I am not interested in anything else.
– How likely is it that Trump will be drawn into a scenario where negotiations about Ukraine take place without Ukraine?
– It’s unlikely. Trump will either enter the process himself or not at all.
To make a decision, he must believe it is his idea. He will not accept any other version.
Tetiana Nikolaienko, Censor. NET
