Deputy Interior Minister Leonid Tymchenko: "First burials of unidentified soldiers at military memorial cemetery should be in May"
The return of the bodies of fallen defenders from the temporarily occupied territories or from russia is an opportunity for thousands of families to finally learn the truth about the fate of their loved ones and say a decent farewell to them.
Leonid Tymchenko, Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, told Censor.NET how Ukraine returns fallen heroes, how long the identification process takes, and what to do if a DNA profile cannot be derived.
"WHEN RETURNING THE BODIES OF SOLDIERS, RUSSIANS DO NOT EXPLAIN THE CAUSES OF DEATH"
- When people are looking for missing soldiers, they spend months collecting information by talking to their comrades-in-arms, watching various telegram channels, communicating with soldiers from other brigades fighting in the same area, and with each other. As a result, they often have more information than representatives of various government agencies responsible for searching for missing persons at the front. But all this information needs to be systematised and analysed so that it can be used effectively. How can this be done?
- The Ombudsman's Office for Missing Persons, in addition to its main functions, also has an analytical function: employees work not only with information provided by relatives, but also with what they have collected on their own. In particular, they monitor Russian publics where photos and videos of the military are published. For example, when a person is taken prisoner, they start interviewing him or her. Analysts try to identify such people using face recognition software. And there are already quite a few cases when we establish unofficially that a person is in captivity. Although neither the Red Cross nor any other organisation confirms this information.
- But this is only possible if the photos and videos posted are of high quality. Because we had a case when a woman saw a very poor quality photo in the public domain, but believed that one of the soldiers was her husband. Even though it is very difficult to see facial features. By the way, she went through many services in search of her husband, who is considered missing. But she went to the Ombudsman's Office for Persons Missing in Special Circumstances last.
- Why?
- From what I hear when I talk to relatives of the military, they still do not understand the functionality of such an institution. Perhaps there is not enough information about it in open sources. When people ask me for advice on how to act if they have lost contact with a person at the front, I tell them to file a police report.
- The police, by the way, also have tools that allow them to identify people from photos and videos, and they do so. But the Ombudsperson's Office added an analytical function to help people, rather than hoping that the police will receive this information, register a proceeding, the criminal investigation will start an operational investigation, and they will get to the point where they need to process the video. If the Ombudsperson's Office finds such information, they quickly do so themselves so as not to bureaucratise (or complicate) the process. And if they have managed to identify or presumably identify the person, they already provide this information to the investigators.
- Let's explain to people the algorithm of actions. If relatives of the military find information in the public domain about a person who looks like the person they are looking for, what should they do?
- I will tell you what I would do, given the tools available in the system.
Firstly, after filing a police report, you should establish contact with the investigator to understand that he or she is constantly in touch. Agree with the investigator that you will call once a week if you do not receive any information from him or her.
I review the complaints that come in, so I understand how the system works in general, what people lack, and what the applicants think the National Police (criminal investigation, investigation) and the Commissioner for Persons Missing in Special Circumstances are doing wrong.
I am also aware of how difficult it is to establish such contact with the investigator. Because the draft law on amendments to the Criminal Procedure Code has not yet been adopted, which stipulate that criminal proceedings will remain at the place of their registration, and, accordingly, the applicant's residence, and will not be sent by prosecutors to the regions where the missing person is, for example, Donetsk, Kharkiv or other frontline regions. I will not say how many proceedings each investigator has here, but there are so many that investigators are physically unable to communicate with applicants on a daily basis. And this is not due to a lack of empathy or respect for the families of missing persons.
Recently, lawmakers supported us, the relevant draft law has already been approved by the relevant committee of the Verkhovna Rada, and now we are waiting for it to be submitted to the parliament.
It would be much more effective if the criminal proceedings were investigated at the place where the family of the disappeared filed the appeal.
- What else do you need to do besides establishing contact with the investigator?
- It is also advisable to establish contact with the investigator's supervisor. Because investigators can change. They may have a rotation, they may be sent to consolidated brigades that are at war. And the victims will not know about this and will worry if the investigator does not answer the phone.
The next step is to contact the Secretariat of the Commissioner for Persons Missing in Special Circumstances so that they can provide all available information. Why do I say this? Because there are many departments responsible for this area. I'm not just talking about the MIA system. They have their own databases. And when the Commissioner receives an appeal from a wife, mother or father who has lost contact with their relative, the Commissioner has the right to check the information in all available records. And the number of such requests processed daily by the Ombudsman's Office is very high.
- At the end of March, the bodies of 909 fallen defenders were returned to Ukraine. How many have experts and investigators managed to identify and return to their families for burial so far?
- Since the latest repatriations, the percentage of bodies identified is currently low. Not all the bodies have been examined yet, and not all of them have had their biological material sampled in order to make a DNA profile and place it in the Unified Register of Human Genomic Information. But here we also need to take into account the capacity of the Ministry of Health's forensic medical examination bureau.
- How does the body actually get identified?
- The first is a cursory examination. They examine belongings, documents, tattoos, scars, if any. This makes it possible to identify the person with the help of information from colleagues or relatives.
The second is a full examination, which includes photographs of the body and face. If the face is not distorted, and the person used to lead an active lifestyle and was on social media, then in 99% of cases, using specialised software, we can identify the person.
Of course, if there are putrefactive changes and the face cannot be photographed and recognised properly, fingerprints are taken. We have fingerprint files through which we run all fingerprints if it is possible to roll them back. And there are examples of people who have been identified in this way.
Another method is recognition by dental formula. However, in order to carry out such recognition on a large scale, we need to obtain information about the dental formulas of all our servicemen. We do not have such a database, so the use of this approach is being considered in the future.
At present, the main method used by experts is the identification of a person by DNA profile.
- If biological material was taken from the military en masse, as it should be by law, the identification procedure would be much simpler and faster. There would be no need to wait for relatives to go to the police and have their buccal epithelium samples taken. Do you raise this issue during joint meetings with representatives of the Ministry of Defence or the General Staff?
- Our minister raises this issue, and so does the prime minister. We, for our part, have provided the Ministry of Defence with systems for the selection of biological material that we had received from international partners. They are now carrying out these activities.
- How long does it take to work with the body to carry out all the procedures you mentioned?
- Each situation is unique. One body can be identified by a cursory examination. The second - with the help of fingerprints. But there are cases when you can take biological material three times and still not get a DNA profile. Because the body may have undergone putrefactive changes or been burned, the bone tissue may be so atrophied that it is impossible to extract a DNA profile.
- Are there cases when you can't identify a person at all?
- Unfortunately, there is.
- Is this a high percentage of the total number of bodies?
- Let me explain with an example: when we receive a package and see that it contains body parts, we understand that there are the remains of more than one body.
Do you remember the situation with the downed IL-76 with about 60 prisoners of war? More than 500 remains were recovered from this aircraft.
What is the job of the investigator and the expert in this case? For each part that was recovered, a DNA profile had to be derived.
Therefore, it is not correct to measure the success rate here.
- What happens to the bodies of people who cannot be identified?
- They are subject to temporary burial..
- Why temporary, if in principle it is not possible to derive a DNA profile and identify a person?
- In general, temporary burial is applied to those bodies from which biological material was collected, a DNA profile was derived and placed in the database, but there was no match. Until then, they are stored for a year.
There were also temporary burials in Sumy and Dnipropetrovsk regions back in 2022, when the decisions were made by regional or city military administrations, because there were so many bodies.
It is now planned that in cases where the bodies could not be identified, they will be buried in a military memorial cemetery with appropriate honours. So far, a large number of bodies are still being stored.
- How long will they be stored if there is no such cemetery?
- The first burials of the unidentified soldiers at the military memorial cemetery are due in May.
- You said that parts of different bodies can be transferred in one bag. And what if parts of one body end up in different regions with different experts, what do they tell the soldier's family?
- It depends on what part of the body we are talking about. If they bring an arm or a leg, it does not mean that the person is dead. There is still hope that they are alive. If it's a torso or head, then everything is clear.
"THERE ARE NO SEPARATE REPATRIATIONS FOR PEOPLE WHO DIED IN RUSSIAN COLONIES OR PRE-TRIAL DETENTION CENTRES"
- During such exchanges, does the Russian side hand over the bodies of civilians held in detention facilities who died there, or the bodies of prisoners of war?
- We can establish that the deceased was a prisoner of war or civilian only as a result of investigative actions or if we have confirmed information that the person was held captive or detained in places of detention, in the case of civilians. There are no separate repatriations for people who died in Russian colonies or pre-trial detention centres. When returning the bodies of military personnel, Russians do not explain the causes of death.
- Can we assume that they are burying them in the occupied territories or in russia to conceal the cause of death?
- Most likely it is. They hand over the bodies of fallen soldiers only to get their own soldiers and not to keep ours, because it is costly for them, as it requires refrigerators and appropriate temperature conditions.
- And what information do they provide to our side during repatriations?
- They can transfer bodies without providing any information. Or maybe each bag has some kind of inscription, some kind of sign.
- Has the body of journalist Viktoria Roshchyna been returned to Ukraine?
- Yes, her body was returned as part of a recent repatriation at the end of February this year. Her identity has been identified through DNA testing.
- We have repeatedly seen videos of executions of our military who have been captured. But we don't know what can happen before the executions. How often does the Russian side hand over bodies of soldiers with signs of torture or disfigurement? Who documents these cases and what is the subsequent reaction of law enforcement?
- It all depends on the condition of the body. Usually, during the examination, you can immediately see if there are bruises, characteristic signs of beatings, tied limbs, then it is clear that the person was tortured. This is a war crime. It is classified under Article 438 of the Criminal Code.
If there is a shot at close range to the back of the head, it is also clear that this did not happen in combat. All this must be carefully described in the examination report. Such facts are also investigated.
- Who decides on the priority for the return of bodies - based on what criteria?
- The Russians have collected a certain number of bodies in the institution and are giving them away.
- Why do they not return all the bodies from one direction or another, but selectively? They can return them from one settlement, but not from another.
- This question would be more appropriate to ask the representatives of the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War, because they have negotiating groups and communicate with the Russian side about the directions from which the bodies are returned and the duration of storage of bodies. Because there are bodies that have been stored for a month, and there are those that have been there for a year, so it is difficult to establish the date of death.
- Often, relatives of those reported missing try to find out the geolocation point where the soldier was last seen. Should they pass this information on to investigators from the National Police or the Secretariat of the Commissioner for Missing Persons under special circumstances? Is this information taken into account during negotiations with the Russian side?
- It is necessary to pass this information on to the investigator investigating the criminal proceedings on a specific fact of disappearance of a serviceman under special circumstances, and, if possible, to the DIU Coordination Headquarters. The Coordination Headquarters and the Ministry of Defence set up search teams that are endowed with additional functions that units in the Ministry of Internal Affairs do not have. For example, the National Police's investigative group is not allowed to enter areas where there are hostilities, while search teams can do so with the permission and accompanied by the military. That is why you started our conversation very correctly by saying that the families of missing soldiers have more information than those who are supposed to search for them. Frankly speaking, in the spring of 2022, I thought this was an unpleasant reproach to the law enforcement system. But then I realised why this was happening. Firstly, the investigator has a lot of requests for such facts. And he cannot physically focus on each material as much as a family member. Because he has functional responsibilities and his main task is to collect all the information, store it well and work on it. But he cannot, like the relatives of a soldier, spend days and nights browsing telegram channels to find at least some news that he is alive among all the information published there. It usually happens that they receive this information faster than law enforcement agencies. And the first question a person has is: "Why was I able to get this information and the law enforcement agencies couldn't?". The answer is clear. I would also like the investigator to live with the materials and dig as much as possible, using the full range of tools provided by the Criminal Procedure Code and analytics. Law enforcement agencies have a lot of tools.
It will be incorrect to say that I am now calmer about the fact that relatives of the military find and receive more information, but it is true.
- Have you ever thought that investigators, operatives, and analysts have too much workload and we need to increase their number?
- Why have not we think about it? Both investigative and operational units are increasing. Analysts, in turn, are now re-profiling and dealing with war crimes. Since 2022, the National Police units have acquired a large number of functions due to the war. If there is a need or a request, people are trained to investigate such facts as efficiently as possible.
Tetiana Bodnia, "Censor.NET"
