Yaroslav Zhelezniak: Fedorov believed there was still something good left in president. I became disillusioned long ago
We meet Yaroslav Zhelezniak, currently the Verkhovna Rada’s chief insider, at the Natsionalnyi Hotel near parliament. He warns us that we have no more than 30 minutes and need to make it count. So we speak briefly and focus on the essentials: the votes on Khmara and Sybiha, the political ambitions of Fedorov and Zhelezniak himself, whether military personnel will receive their salaries, and whether parliamentary elections are possible at this point.
— A few minutes ago, you wrote on your Telegram channel that the president had finally submitted nominations to the Verkhovna Rada to appoint Yevhenii Khmara as defence minister and Andrii Sybiha as foreign minister. Will there be enough votes in parliament tomorrow?
— Yes. Unfortunately, many of my colleagues will vote in favour.
— From all factions? Is anyone unhappy with these nominations at all?
— Most of my colleagues are satisfied. Some people do not give a damn — and they are the majority. Some believe that this is the president’s quota, so it is his choice. Then there are people like me who believe that the dismissal came without any explanation. Therefore, it is unclear why we are appointing Khmara. Because he has a better plan? Or a better vision? Or a lower approval rating? What is the reason for this replacement?
— How will you personally vote?
— I will not vote.
— How is the issue being resolved, given that the law requires the minister to be a civilian? General Khmara is not a civilian.
— I think that, as of now, he is already a civilian.
— How did that happen?
— I do not know how they resolved it, but I know it as a fact. We have now been informed that he is no longer a service member.
— There will be no unexpected developments with the votes for Sybiha?
— No. Sybiha will have the votes.
— But the president has not submitted a nomination to appoint Oleksandr Poklad as head of the Security Service of Ukraine. Why not?
— He will continue serving as acting head, as he does now.
— But why will he remain acting head instead of having that qualifier removed?
— I think the answer lies in the fact that it is very convenient for Zelenskyy to be able to replace someone at any moment.
— What was the mood in the Verkhovna Rada this morning? Did MPs know whether the president would submit the nominations?
— These people do not understand what they will be voting on tomorrow, and you expect them to understand the president’s nominations? Although, if you follow my social media, I said it was highly likely that the nominations would be submitted and that it would be done quickly, leaving no time to react. In other words, they would be submitted in the evening and put to a vote in the morning. That is exactly how it is turning out now.
— Do you know why, until the very end, Mykhailo Fedorov expected that he might return to the post of defence minister?
— I think that, as someone who had been with the president for a long time, he still believed there was something good left in the president. In our earlier conversations, I argued a somewhat different view. I became disillusioned with him a long time ago, so...
— Not with Fedorov, but with the president?
— What does Fedorov have to do with it? Misha is Misha; nothing has changed. I meant the president. For him, I think, this is a personal betrayal. Because, unlike many others, he genuinely believed in the president.
— And is that precisely why, in your opinion, he was careful in what he said in various interviews? He never said anything personally critical of the president...
— I think there are two aspects to this. On the personal side, you know that the biggest quarrels are those between "exes". Accordingly, he did not want to cross that line and genuinely wanted to leave himself some room for manoeuvre. On the other hand, I think Fedorov understands that if he does, all the red lines will be crossed, and they will start going after both him and his team — especially his team. The same "acting officials" we mentioned earlier in the interview.
— And is that why he chose not to assume the role of leader of the current protests?
— Look, you are asking many questions that should be put to Mykhailo. Although all the political experts are already predicting a shared political future for us. But frankly, Mykhailo and I have never discussed this. Judging by the trends unfolding in Ukraine, I do not think this is exactly the time to be thinking about elections in general.
— I will ask about your political future later. But first, tell me what political future you see for Fedorov.
— That depends on whether he chooses a political future for himself. As a young man who has already spent quite a long time in politics and, I think, has had his fill of all its drawbacks, Mykhailo could easily choose a path in a completely different direction. And perhaps he would succeed there. Oleksii Honcharuk is a good example (Prime Minister of Ukraine from 2019 to 2020 — ed.). He left politics and became a successful entrepreneur, producing weapons that are helping us enormously. A great example.
— What business does he have?
— Magura (a maritime kamikaze drone manufactured by Uforce — ed.).
— Cool. You know, a smart person once told me that Fedorov could lead a hypothetical new Holos party...
— You mean something occupying the liberal niche?
— Yes.
— Perhaps.
— Do you see yourself as part of that political force, then?
— If you want to ask whether I see myself in politics, my answer is yes. Do I plan to be in the next convocation of parliament? Yes. Am I preparing something of my own in that direction? To some extent, yes. Beyond that, forgive me, it depends on when the elections are held.
— What are you preparing? Will this be your own project?
— I do not like the word "project" at all. But we now have one of the best AI-powered systems for automating various content and analytical processes. We are investing heavily in it.
— Who do you mean by "we"?
— By "we," I mean myself and my team, which is currently handling all our investigations, blogs and analyses. I have one of the best teams in OSINT and certainly in financial analysis. We do a great deal, both as part of my work on the Temporary Investigative Commission and as part of my public activities. So yes, I intend to run in an election one day. But we do not know when elections will be held. That is why it is strange to talk now about whom we will contest them with. This is a challenge for Mykhailo as well, and for everyone else. There is currently no politician, including any of those in the top three, who can say they will make it to the finish line. We do not even know the year in which the elections will take place.
— Danylo Hetmantsev, head of your Finance Committee, wrote today that MPs must pass all the measures required to fulfil Ukraine’s commitments to its partners this week. Otherwise, the country will face financial trouble. Are there enough votes in the chamber for all these measures?
— Not yet, no. Judging by today, there were not enough votes for the Customs Code, so it was postponed until tomorrow. We currently have unfulfilled commitments associated with EUR 7.3 billion. Possibly even more. Most of the items are technical. But some are important: those concerning the State Bureau of Investigation, strengthening the High Anti-Corruption Court (HACC), the National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU) and the Specialised Anti-Corruption Prosecutor’s Office (SAPO), various anti-corruption initiatives, judges, the railway and procurement. Overall, it is a large package of commitments tied to European funding, IMF funding, as well as American, British, Japanese and other financing.
— What will happen if there are not enough votes for these decisions this week?
— God willing, we will get through at least a third of this by the end of the year. At this stage, I would already consider that a success. You know... I seem to be in the mood for allegories today... It is as if you were a student who did nothing all year, partied, got drunk, swore at your lecturers a couple of times, skipped seminars, and now had to pass the entire exam session at once. At the same time, you also failed the previous semester and are already on probation. Our situation now is rather similar.
— Explain what this could lead to. Will public-sector employees go unpaid?
— I think it will somehow be resolved in any case. Certain decisions will be made. The most likely option is budget sequestration, meaning cuts to certain expenditures. There are not many expenditures available to cut, though. The funds would then be redirected primarily to the military. The best-case scenario is that we somehow secure additional borrowing that could be redirected to cover such needs. Our biggest problem is the military budget. There is a shortfall. I estimate the shortfall in military salaries at UAH 200 billion. The Accounting Chamber puts it at UAH 365 billion. But I think my figure is more realistic. This money must be found in any event. Could we end up in a situation where salaries are not paid? No.
— So the military won’t be left without their salaries? Because that would be absolutely appalling.
— No. I think everyone fully understands the risks involved in this process. But just how big a challenge is it, and where should we look for this money? I haven’t yet found anyone who can answer that question. That is precisely why the minister is urgently holding all these meetings on international obligations and demanding that the Rada vote on them quickly. It’s a major problem. And it’s getting worse. Plus, the ports and the railways are blocked. And let’s be honest: right now they (the Russians — ed.) are going to target our grain silos.
— Speaking of Hetmantsev, you are often associated with him. Some people even tell me that the two of you are virtually on the same team. How would you describe your relationship?
— We had an argument on social media just today! Look, I am a politician and the first deputy head of the Finance Committee. Many people may cooperate with me on specific issues and, accordingly, may clash with me on specific issues. Hetmantsev is, after all, a member of Zelenskyy’s team. Judging by my actions, my responses, and the way I have "gone after" and will continue to "go after" Mindich, Yermak and the rest of the president’s entourage, I hardly look like a member of Zelenskyy’s team. Presumably, if Hetmantsev and I had some kind of connection, the president and his entourage would already have called us out on it.
— Yaroslav, by the way, why do you speak so boldly across all platforms, saying whatever you believe needs to be said and criticising the president and his entourage? Do you face any pressure because of this?
— I do.
— What kind? Tell me. You say that some people are afraid to criticise because the Security Service of Ukraine will start going after them...
— Well, they probably have something that can be used against them. I do not own a business. All my assets are known, declared and verified, thank God. I have nothing to hide. Unfortunately, my parents’ entire business was left behind in Mariupol.
— What kind of business did they have there?
— We owned a commercial property and a couple of beauty salons.
— Are your parents here now?
— My father died in 2017. My mother is here in Kyiv. She works as a massage therapist, if you want to know. Well, as a cosmetologist and massage therapist. Her pension is low, and she had some savings, but...
— How old is your mother?
— She is 65. But she is a paediatrician herself. And now she works more for her own sake. I am saying this so that she does not think she has a bad son who does not help her (he laughs). So what can they use to pressure me? But yes, Yermak wanted high treason cases opened: one against Arakhamiia over a Russian connection, and one against me over an American connection.
— Is this the case involving you, Arakhamiia, Honcharenko and some fourth person...?
— I think it was Hetmantsev. Every so often, people tell me things and threaten me; surveillance teams follow me, my communications are tapped...
— Do you notice that you are being followed?
— Not at the moment. I would be glad if I did. If they could bring the surveillance back, I would feel safer walking my dog in the evening.
— What kind of threats do you receive?
— Things like, "You criticise too much"...
— Who did they come from?
— From various people in the president’s entourage.
— You do not want to name them directly?
— What would be the point? They are warnings, after all. Some people pass along a signal, while others warn me themselves. But there have also been such incidents involving people in Yermak’s entourage. Now, as you can see, he is gone. An entire file on me was found there. And I am constantly mentioned in the "Mindich tapes"... Look, I lost too much in Mariupol to be afraid of my own government as well.
— What exactly did you lose there?
— Everything. My house. All my childhood photographs. The entire business.
— Was the house destroyed?
— It seems not. The last neighbours to leave said that the roof had been breached. I do not know how to check its condition now. The only thing that troubles me is that my childhood photographs, drawings and all those things were left in the basement. I deeply regret not bringing them to Kyiv. It would have been nice to show them to my son now.
— The final subject I want to address: I recently watched another episode of UP.Chat, and all its participants strongly advocated holding parliamentary elections. What do you think about this?
— I think it is impossible. We could also do with a Death Star to deal with our enemies in one fell swoop. But the Death Star exists only in Lucas’s films for now. Elections are impossible. How would you hold them? Do I like the current government? No. Should we MPs be replaced after we have remained there three or four years too long? Of course we should. The absence of political competition is one of our biggest problems at the moment. But how exactly can we hold elections? Elections are not a one-day event; they require at least 60 to 90 days of campaigning.
— For example, voting could take place over a week rather than on a single day. And through Diia, for instance.
— You are talking about polling day. That is also an enormous infrastructure challenge: all the schools in the frontline areas have been destroyed, so where would we hold the vote, and so on. But elections are not a one-day event! There is also the electoral process: how would military personnel vote, what would the funding arrangements be, what electoral system would be used, and how would campaigning take place? Suppose a candidate emerges, a Ukrainian citizen with a Ukrainian passport, and begins promoting things for which he could be charged with high treason. But he does so as part of his political platform. Do we disqualify him from the election for that or not? I follow Ukrainska Pravda and have even spoken with many of those who expressed that position there. I think it is simply impossible from a procedural standpoint. I am afraid this is an entirely theoretical discussion.
— What should we expect from tomorrow’s parliamentary session?
— They will submit the nominations, vote to appoint the two of them, and that will be it. They will call it a great victory and say that otherwise Putin will attack again. The standard story. The problem with our entire "series," I think, is that, like a melodrama in its final episodes, it has started repeating itself.
Iryna Romaliiska for Censor.NET
