Chervinskyi: I know who heads Mindich’s schemes

In a new interview with Censor.NET, Roman Chervinskyi comments on his case over the Kanatove airfield and the course of the trial, and also offers his own version of the events surrounding Ukraine’s preparations for Russia’s full-scale invasion and Wagnergate. He assesses the role of the leadership of the special services and the authorities, including Andriy Yermak, Vasyl Maliuk, Kyrylo Budanov, and Ivan Bakanov, and also touches on corruption during the war, possible pressure on law enforcement officers, Russian agents, and the story of the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines.

Hello, friends! This is Censor.NET. I, Maryna Danyliuk-Yarmolaieva, am glad to welcome Colonel Roman Chervinskyi to the studio. They have not stripped you of your rank, have they?

No, they have not. Everything is being gradually restored.

A star who served in the Security Service of Ukraine and the Defence Intelligence of Ukraine, he has become a symbol of the Zelenskyy era and of the full-scale invasion. And of the pressure that, unfortunately, the authorities often exert on our defenders. So today we have met. You know, there is a certain symbolism in this, because a few years ago, we did our first major interview with Roman Chervinskyi. Before those very charges were brought. And now we have decided to meet again and look at this situation through the lens of the years that have passed.

So, Roman, let us begin with these cases. As I understand it, they have not gone anywhere. What stage are they at now, and what charges are still hanging over you?

Thank you very much for the invitation. This is actually quite symbolic because about three years ago, in April 2023, I believe, we met right here. That was the first step toward what I already knew: the persecution was happening. They had already threatened me, trying to push me to a certain state. I think I told you then that they wanted me to flee abroad, hoping I would get scared of being held criminally liable. I said that I fear nothing because I committed no crime. But they chose to proceed this way regardless.

And one of the reasons I was ultimately detained on April 21, 2023, was our interview. You know, this sensitivity of the authorities to media events triggered exactly that kind of reaction. In other words, they summoned certain people and told them that this interview should not be released. However, it came out immediately after my detention, which is what I assumed would happen.

The case for which I was detained involves the shelling of the Kanatove airfield. The Security Service of Ukraine (SSU) tried to accuse me of being a Russian agent and informing the Russians about the concentration of equipment and personnel at the Kanatove airfield in Kropyvnytskyi, Kirovohrad region. Allegedly, the Russians used this information to launch a missile strike on the airfield, resulting in casualties, including the death of the unit commander. However, during the investigation, they found that I had not informed anyone in any way. The shelling most likely occurred due to the enemy's aerial, air, or satellite reconnaissance, which is conducted continuously over Ukrainian territory. They discovered there was enough personnel and equipment at the airfield to justify a missile strike from their side, according to military logic. Since missiles are expensive weapons costing several million dollars, it is impossible to simply launch them blindly toward an operational site.

The court proceedings have effectively been ongoing for three years now, one year of investigation and two years of trial. Over these two years, only the so-called victims have been questioned. During these depositions, it emerged that the investigator had misled them all, labeling them as victims in my case, as if they were affected by my actions. In reality, they all consider themselves victims of Russian aggression. The investigator manipulated them by asking them to sign statements saying they suffered from Russian aggression; they signed them, and he then placed those statements into my case file to construct a semblance of guilt.

Next, we saw how the prosecutor constructed a certain narrative, attempting to claim that I had exceeded my official powers. Specifically, they alleged that I went to the airfield without any authorization and conducted the operation without the permission of my command. However, during my detention, my commanders — Yurii and Viktor Ivanovych, who is a general, appeared in court and testified that the operation was indeed authorized; they had sanctioned it for me, I had reported to them about it, and the SSU was a participant. I believe the calculation of the SSU, and specifically Maliuk at the time, was that they...

A quick remark. Wasn't Bakanov heading the Security Service of Ukraine at that time?

Maliuk was heading the Security Service of Ukraine. Bakanov led it until the summer of 2022, I believe, whereas this event took place in the spring of 2023. It was Maliuk, I would say, who fueled the media frenzy around this case and tried to label me guilty prematurely, calling me a deserter, claiming that people died because of me, asserting that the investigation had established this, and insisting that I must be held accountable.

I will quote a direct statement from one of Maliuk’s first public comments on this case; he called you a "scoundrel because of whom people died."

Yes.

Tell me, do you hold a personal grudge against Vasyl Maliuk?

We all understand why he came out and said those things. He was gaining political weight at the time; he was moving toward his appointment, and for him, this was a way to consolidate his position.

He had already been in office by then, for almost a year, slightly less. At that time, he was trying to please the president and carry out the instructions of Yermak, Tatarov, and so on. This was when the president was stomping his feet, asking why he was visiting Maryna, recording interviews for "Ukrainska Pravda," and demanding they stop him and do something about this defiant officer. At that time, by the way, I was serving in the SSO (Special Operations Forces). Therefore, Maliuk was simply trying to show loyalty to the Ukrainian leadership of the time and demonstrate his professionalism. However, in my opinion, he proved to be unprofessional in this situation. A person in such a position must be accountable for their words. He must be responsible for his actions and control the terminology he uses. In reality, such statements effectively constitute an admission of my guilt, claiming that I am a confirmed deserter or a confirmed criminal, and an attempt to convince the public of exactly that. Incidentally, he mentioned there that "this is the man who loves to go around giving interviews." At that point, I believe I had only given one interview to Shuster regarding Wagnergate. We were trying to inform everyone that Russian moles had entrenched themselves in the Office of the President and were attempting to sell out the country. That interview took place in December 2021.

Instead of fulfilling his direct duties, Maliuk was distracted by things like the president's whims. I do not know Maliuk personally, but from a professional standpoint, he acted improperly.

He was dismissed because he became quite popular with the public and began to be associated with successful operations on the territory of Russia. He was dismissed so he wouldn't hog the spotlight.

I think there is a whole range of reasons why he was dismissed. He failed to see through the operation regarding NABU and Trukhanov with his Russian passport. It turned out that he pays attention to things that are actually unimportant, shifting the focus away from work results toward media coverage.

And then there is Operation "Pavutyna" (‘Spider’s Web’), which was very successful and exemplary for us; he tried to claim the credit for it. But he wasn't the one who developed it. In such an operation, the operative is more important than the person who approves it. Time will tell.

Regarding my own case, I still plan to sue him to understand what the intent behind his words was and what they were based on.

So you plan to file a lawsuit against Maliuk? Specifically for that press conference where he called you a "scoundrel"?

Yes, yes. Our symbolic meeting might just symbolize this event. I think this will all happen in the near future, literally within a week.

Roman, returning specifically to the case of the strike on the Kanatove airfield, in your opinion, whose testimony is needed for you to clear your reputation and return to service as a transparent and innocent person?

To be honest, I need the testimony of honest officers. I already have it. It is enough for me to clear my name. As for those who changed their testimony, it was quite telling, and I always pointed this out during the trial, I presented the interrogations of SSU officers and generals who were effectively acting on Maliuk’s orders. One day, they would testify that the operation existed, that they supported it, and that it was reported to them; a month later, they would claim the operation never happened, that they cancelled it at the very beginning, and it did not exist. However, there are officers at the lowest ranks of the officer hierarchy who told the truth. They said, "We participated in the operation, it concluded, and we reported everything until the very last step," and so on. These are the officers I need. Because today, I am already envisioning a new SSU, not just the SSU, but any law enforcement or military system.

Because we truly were able to win and stop the enemy, because of these patriotic fellows. Not the ones who formally fulfilled their duties, held positions, simply filed reports, and tried to please the president. But those who actually took up arms and went to defend the country. There were many of them. I believe people should be selected based on these criteria. They should be appointed to positions based on these standards, so that these individuals are truly honest with themselves, those around them, and so forth.

Imagine you are a Kyiv resident, and an officer is the head of the Main Directorate of the SSU in Kyiv and the Kyiv region. He is responsible for the security of all residents in our region. Today, he says the operation happened, and tomorrow, at the whim of someone above, he says it didn't. Can we trust such an officer with our fate before a war, when our lives, our children, and our future depend on it? I believe this is exactly why we gather here and talk about it: to show that such officers exist, and today they hold the highest positions.

Let me clarify: do figures like Zaluzhnyi, Bakanov, and Maliuk himself know the truth about what happened at the Kanatove airfield?

They know, one hundred percent. That is precisely why Maliuk said I was a deserter. That was what he focused everyone's attention on, because he understood that the Kanatove case would fall apart and needed to be bolstered by something. So he started bolstering it with desertion. They understand everything perfectly; they know everything perfectly. They will all send me greetings, saying, "We didn't want to, it wasn't us, we were forced." I laugh at these excuses. An investigator tells me, "I apologize, but I have three children, and I am forced to do this." I was simply shocked. That is what I am saying: these people are not officers; they should be street sweepers, bus drivers, or construction workers, by all means. After all, an officer's word should mean something.

In your opinion, why are Bakanov and Zaluzhnyi remaining silent on this case?

As for Bakanov, it is clear, he is a friend and the closest associate of the president. He was the first to lie regarding this case. He claimed that nothing happened. Following that, the testimony changed for both the head of the Kyiv directorate, a certain Zaiats, and his deputy, who had authorized the operation. Thus, Bakanov has already testified; he said "no." As for Zaluzhnyi, he is still pending; we have not questioned him in court yet, so he has not given testimony. My lawyers tried to contact him, but he was busy at the time and did not provide a statement. I believe his testimony would be truthful and could finally settle the matter.

But you know, this entire process has shown us who is who. It reveals how people conduct themselves in various situations—how a regular officer, a captain or a major, acts with more dignity than some generals in the SSU today. This targeted negative selection is exactly what has created the negativity we see today, both within the SSU and in certain areas of intelligence. We can speak about this today because we all remember 2022 very well, how the president said our intelligence was the best, and there would be no war. How did that happen? Why aren't these people... where are they today? Where are the legal proceedings against them? While I am a suspect on the premise that my operation allegedly led to the shelling, in their case, outright unreliable data and testimony have led to the loss of millions of lives and territories to date.

Speaking of war preparations, on the current anniversary of the full-scale invasion, The Guardian published a massive article based primarily on information provided by the CIA and MI6. The intelligence services revealed how they had warned the Ukrainian authorities. There are entire sections describing how President Zelenskyy insisted nothing like that would happen, even when the CIA director brought maps showing the offensive arrows. He said we shouldn't escalate and were saving our people's money. Why was this done? The article names the individual who most often told the President there would be no war: Andrii Yermak. In your opinion, where exactly did we make fatal mistakes, including our intelligence and political leadership, considering we received information about a possible invasion at least six months in advance?

Direct information began arriving in October 2021, immediately after Putin completed Nord Stream 2.

That’s still four months, isn’t it?

Four months, yes. It was public knowledge that the intelligence services could have reported it much earlier.

A fatal mistake

It started in 2019 with the handover of Tsemakh. Mistakes were made; we tried to speak up, but no one paid attention.

What is Yermak? Yermak is a producer; he could not have told the President professionally or competently that there would be no war. Someone else said it, and Zelenskyy specified who: Ukrainian intelligence. At that time, Oleksandr Lytvynenko headed the Foreign Intelligence Service. He took office in July 2021. His first decision was to disband the Department that worked specifically against Russia. By December, it had already been disbanded. This department had been reporting to him when and from where the war would start, the directions of the offensive, the equipment, and the number of troops. But he reported to the President that such a thing would not happen, effectively falsifying documents.

Is this your assumption?

This is a fact that I can confirm and find witnesses for. He met with me personally and said that he did not tell the President there would be war.

And another point, he graduated from the FSB Academy.

But Oleksandr Syrskyi also studied at a Russian university.

Well, the consequences of Syrskyi's actions are yet to be seen.

We have already seen the consequences of Lytvynenko's actions; the war began in February 2022, but the intelligence services reported there would be no war. Lytvynenko consistently held analytical positions, serving as a security analyst. Today, he has gone to Serbia as an ambassador. Later, during the war, he became the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC). I believe this was so he could destroy and erase what happened in 2021 and 2022.

Here, this is the first point indicating it wasn't Yermak. Yermak was already carrying out someone's will. And the people we pay salaries to, who are supposed to know what happens tomorrow, are the intelligence officers.

The second intelligence service is military intelligence. It was headed at that time by Budanov, who also failed to report in any way, with any official document, that there would be a war. I consider this a crime.

I will offer a counterargument here. I remember Budanov’s press appearance on November 21, 2021, where he stated that Russia was preparing a full-scale invasion. That did indeed happen.

That did happen. But what exactly did he say, what did he write, and what did he do? Where was Russia preparing a full-scale invasion? In the East. Not toward Kyiv, not from Crimea, and so on. That is the first question. Secondly, speaking to the media is one thing; I understand that’s his hobby, but he has a primary job: being the head of intelligence. The head of intelligence was duty-bound to write to the NSDC, the President, the Armed Forces command, and the General Staff, stating that there would be a war and that offensives would be from here, from here, and from here.

Well, look, he said in public interviews that he was prepared, and that just a few hours before Russia began the full-scale invasion, he was sitting in his office with his wife, already expecting the attack.

This is like some comic book, you know, Kvartal 95 style. The head of intelligence, without informing any of the military that there would be a war or where the offensives would come from, takes his toothbrush, his wife, some spare clothes, and goes to his office to wait for the war. It’s ridiculous. This is exactly what we are discussing today when you ask who, why, and what happened. Yermak is not the main figure. Yermak is the person who ensured that positions in intelligence, command structures, and the armed forces were filled by people who lacked sufficient competence, or perhaps were Russian agents, and remain so to this day, staying in office and continuing to lead these intelligence bodies.

Do you know who headed the Intelligence Committee under the NSDC?

Ruslan Demchenko? By the way, where is he now?

He was listed in intelligence in freelance positions, but he performs his functions there and continues to control intelligence. In other words, he continues to try to do what he is a specialist in.

In what sense does he control it?

He controlled Lytvynenko at that time. He currently adjusts the work of the active head of military intelligence. Effectively, he communicates with them. These are the same people. Today, the person acting in a leading capacity instead of Budanov is the one who was his first deputy at the start of the war, specifically, the person who was simultaneously the first deputy in the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, preparing daily intelligence reports. Those reports should have stated that an invasion was coming and from where, but they didn't. In other words, our Armed Forces were not notified. This is exactly why I say we need to look at this through two prisms.

There are only two options here. The first is unprofessionalism. The second is working for the enemy. There was a desire to simply surrender territory quietly, without a fight, as the President said: "Wait at home; they will only enter military facilities, strike military targets, and seize law enforcement agencies, but they won't touch civilians." That was the plan. We see it. That is also a plan. These are actions that could lead to such a plan.

As a professional intelligence officer, did you personally know that such a full-scale invasion would occur on February 24, 2022?

I could not have known that because I did not have access to the information that our intelligence officers possessed.

What specific information did you have?

From the information I was gathering, I saw their public statements, but I did not expect it to be so, you know, hypocritical, that they could publicly state there would be a war in the East, an escalation in the East, but nothing would happen here. I believed there would be an escalation in the East, and I thought nothing would actually happen here. However, as it turned out, they were ready to deceive the entire Ukrainian people to fulfill the instructions of the Russians. That is, to prepare Kyiv, the strategy was slightly different. The strategy was not a military invasion. Putin's strategy was to capture Kyiv, change the political power, and then there would be no war there. If different people had been sitting in Kyiv, that would have been it. Then they would have advanced through Kharkiv, as you saw, they put a lot of effort into Kharkiv at that time, and from the south, from Chonhar to Mariupol. After that, they intended to go there and link up their two groupings somewhere in the Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk regions. Furthermore, all our forces would have been drawn to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions at that time. They would have been left there without logistics, without weapons supplies, and essentially, the job would have been done. That was their plan.

I think some of our people also participated in this plan, including intelligence officers and heads of certain organizations and state bodies, but this needs to be investigated. Since I started talking about this back in 2020 and participating in the Temporary Investigative Commission (TIC), we have had absolutely no access to any authority. In other words, today counterintelligence should be dealing with this, but it still consists of those people who are appointed by Yermak once again.

You mean the TIC on Wagnergate, right?

I mean the TIC on Wagnergate, where we were already saying that attention must be paid to the fact that there are people sitting in the Office of the President who are betraying Ukraine's interests; they are creating certain conditions where we cannot fight on an equal footing.

By the way, don't you have the feeling that due to the full-scale invasion, and because new scandalous cases have accumulated, Wagnergate will be lost and no longer remembered? As such an important turning point that changed the attitude toward the intelligence service, given how the political authorities told us for a whole year that there was no Wagnergate.

Yes, Arestovych and Budanov were making the rounds; Budanov came to the TIC and claimed there was no Wagnergate, he forged documents. There is the testimony of my deputy, Oleksandr Zholobetskyi, who clearly states that he was summoned and forced to forge documents. When they removed us, they removed Semeniuk. They summoned lower-ranking officers and tried to intimidate them: "You are obligated to forge, to destroy documents, this operation did not exist." And Budanov said this personally on television, at the TIC. There are a lot of questions regarding Budanov in general.

For me, an important event is the poisoning of Navalny. The intelligence services confirmed that Navalny was poisoned in prison. Putin is a dictator who poisons his opponents. For Putin, this is a reputational risk.

So Budanov came out and said Navalny was not poisoned; he died on his own. In this way, he is playing into the interests of Russia.

This is not the first interview where I sense mild skepticism toward Budanov. We remember his ascent to the top of the Main Directorate of Intelligence of the Ministry of Defense (HUR MO). Today, this person is one of the leaders in electoral preferences. And, by the way, based on what people close to Zelenskyy are saying, it is not excluded that at some point Volodymyr Oleksandrovych will come out and say, "Look, our Kyrylo is young, we will have 'Operation Successor'." We cannot underestimate how much Budanov has grown during the full-scale invasion, can we?

So this is an objective fact in the mind of Zelenskyy, who led the country into war, who tried to surrender territory together with Yermak, and the intelligence officers who created all the conditions for this, this is their real world. They can draw up whatever ratings they want. But that will not stop me from telling the truth. I will keep speaking.

Look at the facts, look at the events, what he did. Think critically, because we truly could lose the country. They can paint whatever picture they want. Obviously, Zelenskyy needs a successor, you are right. That is exactly what he wants today. Because someone like Budanov, a man from nowhere, he will protect Zelenskyy. Meaning, if he hands over power to him, he will say it is on the condition that you do not prosecute me, you do not investigate my corruption, you do not investigate the surrender of territory, because we did it together. A perfect plan. And it is not being written in Ukraine. I will surprise you a lot, but it is not being written in Ukraine. It is being written abroad. North of Ukraine. In my opinion.

By the way, how do you evaluate the people who came to the top positions in the SSU after Maliuk? I mean Mr. Khmara and Poklad, the first deputy.

Mr. Khmara is a professional "Alpha" officer, a military serviceman. I respect him. From what I know about him, he is doing a good job. He does his work the best he can. Poklad also does his work the best he can, but in whose interests, I do not know. I understand, but I will not make unsubstantiated claims right now, because I am accustomed to speaking with facts and evidence.

So these are more professional people than Bakanov, right?

Yes. For example, Poklad surveils me more professionally than Maliuk, who simply broke down walls, shouted that I was a criminal, and tried to put me in jail. This one schemes something, sends people in. He pressures people around me and so on, so that I don't have a supportive social circle of such well-known people. Positive people, let's say, in my environment. So they are simply doing the same thing, but more professionally, more covertly. It will actually lead to the same negative consequences. Because, I say it again, he has been in office for a long time now, almost half a year, and there are no results. These questions we ask him, the things we talk about, no one answers them. He still acts within the context and on the instructions of the current authorities. He follows all their orders, and the current authorities are not interested in telling the truth; they are interested in preserving their personal security, because there was indeed a massive mistake and a massive attempt at the covert surrender of Ukrainian territory. A transfer of power not to the Russians, but simply a transfer of power to political forces loyal to Russia. It was such a cunning and insidious plot that the SSU should have investigated. They are not doing this today. And therefore, it is very negative. So I will say that these professional guys could make things even worse for the country because they will drag this whole story out further, they will delay the end, so we need to be even more professional and critical of their actions and their results.

For instance, I know what Poklad is a professional at. He has already uncovered 150 assassination attempts on people like Kryvonos, for example. A vivid case, it plays very well in the media. There was a similar assassination attempt on Burba, which was allegedly investigated. But in reality, this is simply a tool for reeling in political opponents. That is, there are no actual assassination attempts there. Whether they are acting in sync with the Russians is yet to be proven. But the fact that they are doing this, let's say, there are most likely no real assassination attempts, and they are simulating them, I can state that clearly, because I know for a fact that it was the same with Burba, as far as I know, and the same with Kryvonos. Because I have planned similar operations, and I clearly understand what will work and what won't. Where the risks are and where they aren't. And when you go after a serious target, you do it all in such a way that the Russians won't even see you. Meaning, there cannot be the uncovering of a thousand assassination attempts. It is all purely a tool.

By the way, I see that Zelenskyy has started to change strategies now.

And explain, what is this strategy?

He does not persecute people like me anymore; he stopped. He realized that his power is not absolute, not all-encompassing. That judges will not put those he wants into prisons. They still have to imprison based on a crime. And he has already made so many mistakes with people like me. On the contrary, he created for us, let's say, some recognition in society, some standing. He started simply taking these people into positions. Cunningly pulling them closer to him, pretending to be friends. Appointing them, like me, for instance. As soon as I was released from house arrest, they immediately told me, come work in a position.

So you were offered a position, right?

Well, they didn't just offer. I have now, yes, taken a position.

They offered it back then?

Now. Back then, they were jailing all of us. They thought that was it, the war would write everything off, that they were strong warriors and so on. And they didn't need those who would talk about their yesterday's treason.

Look, let's imagine they call you and say: Roman, you are going to the SSU, you will be the first deputy. Do whatever you want. But say publicly that Zelenskyy is doing a great job, and you support our leader. Your actions?

Publicly, I will not say that he is doing a great job. I will say that, in my opinion, he is a criminal. And his crime will need to be investigated tomorrow. His actions today that have the hallmarks of crimes.

It must be investigated. How can it be that during a war, the country is being looted by the president and his entourage?

Because of the Wagnergate scandal and because this case did not reach its finale, your head rolled, Semeniuk was dismissed from his post, and Vasyl Burba was kicked out. Where is Burba now?

Burba is currently in Kyiv. He was dismissed.

I believe that the finale of Wagnergate is a positive story. In a state ruled by traitors, you cannot be an element of it. They threw us out, and now we are talking about it and have the right to say: pay attention to these actions, and they must be investigated. We will testify. We initiated a case against Bezuhla, who revealed a secret.

In your opinion, is Mariana Bezuhla acting on her own, or is she carrying out someone’s orders?

On her own. And sometimes someone uses her. They sincerely convince her that these are bad people, and she runs off and starts shouting.

Let us turn to the issue of looting during the war. A vivid example of that is the Midas case. And everything around it. Pressure on law enforcement officers. And those unpleasant moments when it emerged that many people from Bankova, from the president’s inner circle, were involved in these schemes. And were making enormous profits.

In your opinion, how should such people be punished, how should they be wiretapped? In the case of Detective Mahamedrasulov, we saw how detectives are being pressured and intimidated.

The worst part is that they stooped to going after family members, after relatives, trying to force an officer into submission. That is unacceptable, and it speaks to their level. To their officer’s honour and dignity. This was organised by the Security Service of Ukraine. What should be done about it?

We cannot do anything because they brought into power people made in their own image, with their own intellectual level. They brought in people just like themselves. Take Mindich, for example, as they say, he has no higher education. A man who has not worked a single day anywhere. Just some ordinary fraudster, a schemer. Those are the kinds of people they brought in. How can we convict them today if the same kind of people are in law enforcement as well? Like Maliuk, who also came out and started manipulating certain facts simply to carry out President Zelenskyy’s wishes. So we will not be able to punish these people. How should they be punished? People need to think critically and choose worthy, decent people to lead the country. Because that is our problem. We choose some kind of scum who were one thing yesterday and something else tomorrow, who were playing one role today, running naked across the stage yesterday, and today they are presidents. It is a ridiculous story. It looks utterly ridiculous. Why did we do this? How did this happen? It is all television, all media resources. That is why outlets like yours need support, outlets that can tell the truth, that are not afraid of anything. After interviews like the ones we are doing, people end up in prison, but that is what is happening in our country today. And I want us to show that it is not something to be afraid of. You can get through it, you can endure it, but then it gains weight. Then people start listening, paying attention, starting to think. That is how it works.

So the first step is still to change the system of power, the system of values within our government. Because today it does not allow President Zelenskyy to bring to criminal responsibility those who looted the country, because he looted it together with them. Because it is one whole. It is the same mentality. You understand that they cannot hold one another accountable, because if, for example, he were to bring someone like Mindich, or Yermak, or Chernyshov to justice, there is also that crony of his, then they would start telling him: we did it all for you, we were accumulating money for you, transferring these funds into your accounts. They are all interconnected here.

You familiarised yourself with the tapes, right?

Yes, I saw them.

In your opinion, based on your instincts as an operative, who is at the top of that scheme?

Zelenskyy.

Zelenskyy?

There was one interesting phrase there, when they were talking among themselves, and someone was speaking with him, that was Mindich at the time, and one of those bosses says: listen, we are not going up there, we are making money down here. If we climbed higher up, our heads would be taken off, but we are operating down below. So in fact the main earner is the one who passes money upward, and what can be higher than the energy minister? Obviously, there is the prime minister, who was once again installed by Yermak. And Yermak is Zelenskyy, they are one whole, as I have said, I call them identical twins. They are like those twin strollers, you know. They are sitting in the same stroller, apparently they have been wheeled around in it since childhood. Mentally, they are very similar, and they share everything between themselves. Even Budanov himself, who thinks he is, as you say, the successor. But when he came to the Office of the President and tried to appoint his own people to positions, he was told: my friend, here are your tasks, this, this and this, paperwork, handling certain technical matters, and beyond that... He heads a delegation that, in principle, has produced no results, nothing at all; he does not understand what he is actually doing. He is simply a screen that today covers up the activity of those very people put in place by Yermak and Zelenskyy. They are playing a very good game.

Zelenskyy pretends he supposedly knows nothing, while Yermak carries out all the instructions. But then they consult each other on how to act properly, and all the blame falls on Yermak, as if he were the criminal. In reality, all of this is Zelenskyy’s will, and all aware people who are closer to this already understand it, so that is how it needs to be understood. So no one will be able to punish these people who are now stealing billions, because today they grab some small fry, you know. I have lawyers who are defending me now, who were also pressured, whose licences were stripped, or there were attempts to do so, they were intimidated and so on.

They handle many cases and are often at the HACC, the High Anti-Corruption Court. And he says that, statistically, the cases reaching the HACC are those in which 90% of the defendants are businessmen who gave bribes. Ten percent are officials who accepted them. How can that be? Who were those 90% giving bribes to? Because bribery is ultimately the problem of the official, not the problem of the one who gave it.

It moves both ways, in fact.

But what are we fighting? Corruption, right? The crime is committed by the official. The official creates a system in which he has the right not to resolve an issue, not to act within the law, and instead has the right to come and, for money, do whatever he wants. So it is the official who makes that possible. But only 5% or 10% of them are investigated. That shows that the system is distorted, it does not work. That is exactly what this is about: we are not holding to account those who should be held to account.

And that is the problem. So we really need to start from the overall level of education, people’s education, a certain moral foundation. But we can see that today our schools, secondary education institutions, lower-level institutions, higher education institutions, all of them are suffering. Children are going abroad to study. So we may fall into such turbulence that tomorrow there will be no one left to step forward and say something, there will be no people capable of properly heading institutions.

Look, there has to be some memory, because in those same Mindich tapes, where do the main events take place? In the back office of a figure like Andrii Derkach. And who is Andrii Derkach? He is a man whom the U.S. Justice Department directly called a Russian agent with more than 10 years of experience back in 2021. In your interviews, you very often use the phrase Russian agent, Russian network. Perhaps you have an assumption as to why Russian agents such as Andrii Derkach were in demand under every administration since independence.

These were people who really did have communication channels with Russia, who handled certain matters. But we cannot avoid all contact with anyone, we had strong ties in every sphere. We are gradually moving away from the Russian Federation. And the Russian Federation kept recruiting people in positions of power. These people were needed, and they were used. But the question is: is our government using the Russian Federation, or is the Russian Federation using them?

Take the circle of intelligence officers around Zelenskyy. And then the war happened, during which there was supposed to be a change of power in Ukraine, because Zelenskyy did not suit them: hold a referendum, lift the sanctions over Crimea.

And on Andrii Derkach... For me, there was a telling moment in December 2025, when it became known that Russia had awarded him the title Hero of Russia for destabilising, among other things, our energy sector. Is that not a good signal for agents who are lying low in disguise: friends, destabilise Ukraine, we will take you in, you will get a position, and you will even become heroes.

That is Putin’s principle of operation. We do not abandon our own. When Navalny was exchanged for Krasikov, who killed a man in Berlin in Russia’s interests. Putin personally met that killer at the airport. He shows that we are a strong state, we do not abandon our own. He acted the same way with Derkach. And those people who are today, consciously or unconsciously, destabilising us from within are acting in Russia’s interests: Demchenko, Lytvynenko, Budanov. It is hard for us, but the West is helping us with its intelligence.

How was Yermak removed? After the Mindich scandal, Zelenskyy was given an ultimatum: either remove Yermak, or we will release other information in which you will already be directly implicated.

So Zelenskyy was simply saving himself and pushed Yermak aside. So you understand that he does not actually care about the corruption, that Yermak is a Russian agent, that he appointed Russian intelligence-linked figures who said there would be no war. He does not care.

So he does not care about his country. But when he is told that we are now going to expose you personally for corruption, he immediately does what people ask of him. So what we saw was a person with such a low threshold of moral values that he has no understanding at all that he is the president of the country, that he is responsible for the entire population of our country. He thinks: I am responsible for myself, I am such a hero, just do not discredit me, and I will do whatever you say.

Now, you had an interview with Radio Liberty before the New Year, and you described an episode of how you met Andriy Yermak in May 2019. What impression did this person make on you, someone who powerfully built an image through Telegram and the television, that he is very strong here, practically a vice president?

You know, a person with complexes; he tried to make an impression. He came to the meeting in cufflinks and a white shirt, talking, but I realized he understood nothing about intelligence services. He reached out for professional advice, saying, in the SSU, we will help you establish order so there is no corruption, and so on, because our unit is engaged precisely in operations across that territory; we fight, we eliminate criminals, we extract them to our territory, and so on. We do such things, we don't make money on corruption. "Oh, we want to fight this," and so on. But I saw, he repeated it to me several times, how he was a producer for some movie. I think his film is called "Mezha" (The Line). He screened it at some festival, whether in Slovenia, Slovakia, or Hungary, I don't remember. He was very triggered by the fact, repeating several times, that the Ukrainian ambassador did not attend this presentation, even though the film won a prize. He says, "I will change this diplomacy; it will be different."

Today, we see the consequences, when a sexologist holds a position; the main thing is that they acknowledge Yermak's personal achievements and certain personal virtues. So, I saw before me a person who is strictly fixated on himself, he is narcissistic, simply wants some attention for himself, and wanted to prove to everyone that he is a VIP here. We have seen through all his personnel policy and state policy that everything was done precisely for this. Simply self-PR, instead of managing the country effectively.

They simply used every occasion that occurred in the country to promote themselves and Zelenskyy. These are two comrades, and they did all of this. As we see today, he is already pushing his way into the legal profession.

Yes, by the way, pushing into the legal profession, a very interesting niche, I saved a screenshot. So, Mr. Yermak is creating a new non-governmental organization, "Justice for Ukraine." There, he will address the issues of the military, prisoners of war, their families, and their children.

This is, you know, subconsciously Freudian—"Justice for Ukraine." I think he will end up in the dock somewhere giving testimony so that Ukrainians can receive this justice. Because in reality, he is the author of all these things and corruption, of these appointments to positions of the so-called Russian agent network, or of those people who surrendered the country; this is all his authorship. Meaning, this happened under his protection, because he completely influenced Zelenskyy, who was an unprofessional person. Zelenskyy was engaged in his own things, he has some personal problems of his own, and Yermak directly outlined the personnel strategy for him, outlined the geopolitical strategy, outlined the strategy for how Ukraine should move forward.

Therefore, if we truly make a change and manage to get people to realize all these risks, look at all this critically, and correctly elect some statesman for the position going forward, giving him the authority that Zelenskyy has today. Why did everything happen this way? Why did this become possible for them? Because they have a so-called single-party majority in parliament. Thanks to it, they appointed every person to a position and controlled any personnel movements, even within law enforcement agencies. This is precisely what created the opportunity for them to completely manipulate the country.

There is a saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." In other words, these people allowed themselves to loot during a war. Let's return to this question. When it was highly risky, we saved the country, and there was a very great risk that we would indeed be captured in 3-4 days, in 2-3 weeks. We saved it with superhuman efforts, sacrificed many people, lives, territories, families, the homes of entire families. And at the same time, they are simply looting the country in parallel. This is simply absurd. To me, it is savage. They must face the highest measure of punishment.

This is life imprisonment, at a minimum. We do not have the death penalty, but life imprisonment for corrupt officials, I believe, is what is needed during a war. So that he sits there for the rest of his life, and everyone looks at him. Look, this person ended his life and will end it exactly like this.

By the way, regarding Yermak's "Justice for Ukraine," in your opinion, can a person whose name is very closely associated with the possible custom-ordered mobilization of Mr. Dmytro Shtanko handle the rights of prisoners and military personnel? I will remind you that this is the person who documented the corruption of Yermak's brother.

Shtanko is the very one who recorded the first conversations, who, in the summer of 2019, recorded Yermak's brother clearly stating that we came here to build a corrupt system. We will make appointments, you have to work in the position and not forget who appointed you, and form corruption flows specifically for us. "We" means an influence group consisting of two people: Yermak and Zelenskyy. This was clearly stated in the recordings, after which these recordings became public, and after which Shtanko was urgently mobilized, and in Bakhmut, within a month, he became KIA (Killed in Action) and was buried.

It is clear that this person cannot protect anything, but considering that, being an ordinary person at the beginning of 2019, he is now a billionaire, I believe he has the capabilities; let him be of use.

A remark: we haven't seen it, we are assuming.

He has capabilities, he has influence over the president, he has contact with the Russians. Let him do a good deed—and we will see from there. The time will come, and everyone will answer for what they have done. Maybe he wants to whitewash his image. But if the authorities prove it, he must be held accountable, and the funds he has hoarded in cryptocurrency, he must return them.

I would like you to assess, as an operative, as an intelligence officer, whether it is possible to hide securely abroad under current conditions? When is a digital footprint easy to trace?

It is impossible to hide, yes.

Many people from the current authorities think: as long as there is a war, the focus of attention is on military events, so one can somehow drop their parliamentary mandate, flee to Spain, buy real estate, and live for their own pleasure.

Yes, and we see this in practice. Like Yuzyk, for instance.

One can hide in a country that does not have loyal relations with Ukraine—Oman, Iran.

I cannot make baseless accusations; I must have confirmation, legal grounds.

Therefore, they can hide, but legally, all of this is impossible. A digital footprint exists; we will see it. Whoever wants to, whoever has the desire, will find it. Remember how Khrystenko was brought back. They went, actually kidnapped him, and brought him back. And where is the result? No, Khrystenko is not in jail; there is no result. Nor did they expose that, as they called it, mole farm in NABU. There is no such result. But in the SSU, it was precisely for this that Poklad received his position and the title of Hero. Because he brought this person from Dubai outside of any official controlled transfers. Simply in a bag, as they say, as a gift. Therefore, we are forming a system of chaos here, a system of lawlessness. That is exactly what is most terrifying. Because in this lawlessness, the winners will be those who simply have weapons today, who have a team, who have money. And that is, once again, Yermak, Zelenskyy, and those in their entourage today.

They are forming a new political force. This is Budanov, Maliuk, and Biletskyi. They have already accumulated money for themselves and are forming such a new team.

And Biletskyi?

Yes, and Biletskyi.

Good. I was asked to inquire about this here. Are you planning to go into politics?

No. Right now I am not planning this. And I do not see this possibility at all. Today is not the time, because there is a war today. We all have to fight. But if going into politics is necessary to protect my family, then I am ready to do it. However, my professional expertise lies in my experience in law enforcement, intelligence services, and reconnaissance. I will be more useful there. If I am to go into politics, it should be in this profile. Some committee. But then again, I have been out of this history, out of these events, for five years. Now the laws are changing, the experience is changing. I remember, in the beginning, we looked at drones skeptically. In 2019, 2017, 2016. And now this is exactly what allows us to defeat the enemy. Therefore, everything is changing in order to be somewhat useful to one's state, and then we will see. How will it turn out? For example, when I gave an interview in 2023, I did not know that tomorrow, in a week or two, I would be in prison.

Well, the clouds were already gathering, there were already certain articles describing what a criminal and a scoundrel you were.

That is exactly the difference. I think one way, they think another. At the time, I looked at these materials; they told me, "Read this, this is the notice of suspicion, you will be jailed for this." I read it and said, "This is absurd. It is impossible to jail someone for this." That is, when they tried to scare me, I said it is impossible to be jailed for such a thing. It is a fabrication, a lie that will fall apart, and so on. But they did it. In other words, I could not comprehend that I could go to prison. Based on their convictions, I did. Therefore, I cannot say what will happen tomorrow. First and foremost, I am not certain that any political processes will even begin, because today there is a war. How it will end, I do not know.

If these people who are in power today, and those who helped them surrender the country in 2022, 2021, and 2019, remain in power—if this continues, I do not know how the war will end. We must answer to ourselves that we have no right to think about some political career today, because right now the biggest problem is the war. The enemy is at the threshold, and his goal is... To undermine from within and advance from the outside. Driven by the fact that here on the inside, we do not have a united front.

Let's talk a little about the intelligence cases you are proud of. Which of all these cases is your favorite? Tsemakh, Wagnergate, or something else?

It is all, you know, it is all interconnected. The first such positive emotion was Motorola, after all. There was another one, I already mentioned him, that Cossack, what was his name? That was back in 2015. Driomov. Those were the first such experiences; they are always memorable. And then it just becomes life. You start to understand that you live in a slightly different reality. I remember when I was imprisoned during the trial, and I was counting on the testimony of one person. You mentioned him today; he was supposed to come and say that I am innocent, and they would release me immediately. So I am sitting there, fighting, shouting that I am innocent, that I coordinated the operation, that my command knew about it. And then the prosecutor closes the session, kicks out all the witnesses, and reads a piece of paper from this person. He says, no, I didn't coordinate anything, nothing happened. And you know, at first it was like a cold shower for me, but then I felt some inner sense of satisfaction, realizing that I had dotted the i's and crossed the t's, and I understood that I had already won. That is it. I understand where my strengths are, where my weaknesses are, who is for me, who is against me, and what I can do. That is all. It is a different lifestyle.

Some people would have been more frightened, would have broken in that prison, but I already saw some path to the exit. And this experience gave me that; this work in the counterintelligence and intelligence system gave me that. That is exactly what it is. This operation turns into your life, and from then on, you look at everything differently. I am grateful that my wife supported me all along, but when I came out of prison, I saw how she had also changed. She lived this life for a bit, and she started asking me, "Why didn't you tell me that when you deal with such people, these are good, those are bad, these are like this, how do you make sense of it all, how it all works? How could you communicate with everyone?" I say, well, this is the experience that you can communicate with anyone, and anyone can be useful to you in a particular situation. Even Yermak has become useful to us today; by betraying the Wagner operation, he showed that we have a mole farm here, and this mole farm brought the war. So there is this mindset of an intelligence officer: you use all information to achieve your goal. Therefore, it is not just one operation; it is experience gained gradually with each operation, and you begin to believe in it, understand it, and you are ready for everyone.

Today, my successes are victories in the courts. The court abolished an unconstitutional norm. The judges who imprisoned me come and say that they support me. A judge tells the prosecutor in court: "Tell your SSU people that if you pressure me again, I will file an official complaint." On one side of this system are evil and lies, and on the other are justice and truth. And when you see that someone else is on your side, ready to support you, these are the small victories and achievements.

In 30 years in the system, I did not realize that it could falsify materials so brazenly. Or that Maliuk would go on television and say that I am a criminal and a scoundrel. I realized that everything happening in our country stems precisely from this, from unscrupulousness, from the fact that people allow themselves to break the law and lie. Why don't the intelligence officers, the ones who didn't warn about the war, come out and say: "We are guilty, we are resigning." Instead, like Budanov, they push to become president.

I have insider information: when the war had just started, it was April, and he was already saying, "War is for suckers, I am running for president." He was already seizing territories, premises, and businesses back then. He mapped this out for himself.

Do you have confirmation if asked?

Well, as for confirmation, it is information from my sources, and I will not reveal them.

Nevertheless, the media machine is working, TikToks are being clipped, he is very popular among the youth, there is an objective reality...

That is terrifying because we could wake up in a reality just like the one we woke up to on February 24, 2022. And this reality will be unexpected for us. But the youth... But experienced politicians must open the eyes of the youth. The progressive ones are leaving.

I cannot help but bring up one more story in which your name was mentioned — the Wall Street Journal publication claiming that it was Roman Chervinskyi who was the driving force behind and coordinated the Nord Stream sabotage in September 2022. In one of your interviews, you said that you know the people who were arrested and supposedly held accountable, that cases are being fabricated against them. What can you say about those operatives?

That I know them. Professionals and patriots. I want to say that the fact the Nord Stream pipelines have not existed since 2022 is something the Russians now want to turn into a criminal case, and they are already putting forward damage claims. In other words, they lost out on more than $200 billion in funding. That is more than Europe has provided us in aid over the entire course of the war. In other words, that is how much the Russians would have received from that project. That is in monetary terms. Plus, the political pressure they exerted at the time by shutting off gas at the start of the war, they shut it off completely. They started gradually, gradually, gradually, and then completely cut off gas to the Germans and to Europe ahead of winter, telling them: either you abandon Ukraine, or you get no gas. So that was the kind of leverage they had in their hands. So take away the financial benefit and take away the political influence — that is a huge loss for the Russians.

Yesterday, incidentally, we held a roundtable on this issue. Present there were such well-known figures as Ohryzko, Chalyi, Katerynchuk, who served under me as a sergeant in the Special Operations Forces at the start of the war. Other well-known guys and energy experts were there too. And we all came to the conclusion that the state must protect those guys — one of them is now in prison, and another is in Poland.

Serhii Kuznietsov is imprisoned in Germany, and Volodymyr Zhuravliov is in Poland. Poland took a clear position. When the Germans tried to detain Zhuravliov, they said: wait, for what? The Nord Stream pipelines are evil. And the whole world says so. Today, even in 2025, after the Russians’ attempts to revive the Nord Stream pipelines, the European Union imposed sanctions on them and acknowledged that they are evil. Before that, from 2016 to 2022, many European Parliament resolutions were passed, and sanctions were imposed by the Americans, stating that the Nord Stream pipelines would be used to enable war against Ukraine. Intervention in Ukraine — that was the warning, and the Germans did not react. So by putting Serhii on trial today, they are trying to justify their own crime, which later led to the war in Ukraine. That is one of the key arguments. I will give you a brief chronology.

He could not complete Nord Stream 2 because Trump imposed a great many sanctions on it, and so did the European Parliament, the European Union, America, everyone. But when Biden came in, he lifted those sanctions, and Nord Stream was completed on 10 September 2021. And on 10 September 2021, the Zapad-21 military exercises began, during which Putin moved troops up to Ukraine’s border. In other words, he was clearly carrying out his plan step by step. He neutralised Europe’s ability to influence the war by putting it on the gas needle, and immediately began surrounding Ukraine. On 30 October, Putin said that Ukraine would soon cease to exist. If NATO crossed the line and entered Ukraine, Ukraine would cease to exist. And do you remember the demands he made before the war? That under the Warsaw Pact, you must leave Poland, the countries that under that treaty fell within the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence.

In fact, Stoltenberg acknowledged in his memoirs that he and Lavrov had even begun discussing this — the withdrawal of troops to the 1997 lines.

So it turns out that Putin was carrying out step by step his plan to restore Russia’s influence over vast territories. Ukraine was used as a tool and, you know, like a punching doll, to show all of Europe that if you do not do this, the same will happen as happened to Ukraine. And here he was helped by our internal traitors, who were ready to open the doors and change the political leadership here, because Putin understood. As I recently said in an interview, I did not know this, by the way, but according to the classical rules of military science, to seize a country with a population of 40 or 50 million, you need a huge number of people. Far more than they committed in those first days. So yes, this was more of an operational campaign and a classic betrayal.

Let me ask you carefully about the future. Such diverse Russian property, Russian infrastructure that allows Russia to earn excess profits in order to then wage such wars of aggression against us and against our normal neighbors, such as the Baltic states, for example. Is this our legitimate military target? Knocking out such infrastructure.

Yes. It must not be strictly civilian. For example, a pig farming facility is not infrastructure. It refers to areas where excess profits are generated. This is the energy sector. We see how it is happening today. Even the tankers that transport oil. The main thing is for our wartime allies, world leaders, and civilized countries to impose sanctions on this activity. If they impose sanctions, in principle, an almost civilized process takes place here. We stop unauthorized operations that make it possible to wage war. Because truly the whole world has already realized that Putin will wage war as long as he has financing, as long as he receives sustenance for his military machine. Therefore, I think it is a legitimate target, but it is purely a distinction of what can be used for war and what cannot. By the way, regarding the Nord Stream pipelines and Gazprom itself, it directly financed three or four military companies, private military companies, that fought on the territory of Ukraine. There was "Fakel," "Potok," and there was another one, "Redut," I believe.

So there is a direct connection?

A direct connection with financing. Here it is, this is the point, that there is no crime here. But today, for example, the Germans are interested in acting in the interests of the Russians so that tomorrow the Russians can present some claims for damages. Or the Germans want to prove to them that they are reliable partners in the energy business, saying, "continue to supply us with gas and we will be satisfied." So this is purely an economic benefit.

I became terrified yesterday when I was analyzing this issue at a roundtable: it turns out that a private firm was making money from this business. Someone was individually making money, while Ukraine was dragged into a war. We sacrificed our state to the interests of certain individuals. And Putin simply used these people to take over Ukraine. You can clearly see how the volume of gas supplies through Ukraine changed. When the first Nord Stream pipeline was in place, it dropped, and when Nord Stream 2 was built, it almost completely stopped the flow of gas through Ukraine.

There was a plan to isolate Poland and Ukraine.

And he did it, and Poland realizes this. Therefore, thanks to this process, we are uniting with civilized countries that think critically. I think the right process has begun, and we will bring it to an end. Good always wins.

As a person who worked in the SSU and in the HUR, how do you assess our strikes on Russian ports in the Baltic Sea?

Very positively. Well done. This is exactly the infrastructure that we must destroy. Sanctions on energy trade have already been imposed by civilized countries; no one will condemn us. Moreover, if we look back, already on November 21, 2022, Russia was recognized as a state sponsor of terrorism. In principle, everything Russia trades in is used to finance terrorist activities. And it is recognized as such because it was the first to start destroying our infrastructure, the energy sector, shopping complexes. And they tried to intimidate us with a cold winter.

You mentioned Kuznietsov, who is still in prison. Have you assessed for yourself whether it is safe for you to travel in Europe?

Yes, I have. I said that I am ready to come to Kuznietsov's trial because Germany itself violated the laws. Because a foreign entity operates in Germany that is controlled by third countries, which extracts an energy resource, transports it, and distributes it. These are three types of activities, they are separated, and they must be distributed among different structures. The Germans themselves violated this. Gazprom is a Russian entity, the only one that controlled extraction, transportation, and distribution across German territory. So they violated all of this, and therefore we can prove it. As of September 3, 2022, Putin completely shut off the gas supply through the Nord Stream pipelines. In other words, he was blackmailing Europe to stop helping Ukraine. On September 26, the pipelines were gone. Who can prove that Putin would have opened them tomorrow, that he would have started pumping this gas? What losses can be...

There were no losses there; rather, Europe started sourcing supplies from Norway instead.

Well, what I mean is that the Germans are trying to argue that Serhii allegedly blew up the pipeline and thereby caused damage to Germany’s energy system. If Putin shut off the gas, what damage could he possibly have caused? That is a rhetorical question. How do you know Putin would have turned that gas back on for you the next day? He might just as well have said: freeze if you want to help Ukraine.

What I am getting at is this. We have officers who planned and carried out the same Operation Spiderweb, who carried out strikes on Russian oil infrastructure, very effective ones, and, for example, sank vessels of the Black Sea Fleet. And each of them has a family, each of them wants to take a break. Let us say, hypothetically, a person goes on holiday somewhere. They are swimming, and then some law enforcement officers show up at Russia’s request and say: you committed a war crime here against us. Where are Ukrainian intelligence officers supposed to seek protection if they cannot always feel safe even on European territory? Not from Yermak, surely?

In fact, that is a sad joke. Because our state has not stepped in to defend them, they are staying silent, Zelenskyy does not want to say anything. I will say more than that. Yermak himself passed along the materials and said: I believe these were the guys involved in it.

On Nord Stream?

Yes. Through Maliuk.

To the Germans?

Yes. Because they believed that in this way they would pin responsibility on Zaluzhnyi in this situation. They would follow the chain, say that he was to blame, and in that way remove him from the electoral field. That was their plan, but I do not think it will work.

When Zaluzhnyi’s surname first appeared there, many people in Ukraine started writing that if it really was Zaluzhnyi, then respect to him, he is an absolute legend.

Good for them. But I want to say that, if you are interested, look through the media. By the way, the person we mentioned today, Derkach, was the first to mention Kuznietsov’s surname in connection with Nord Stream. And he received that information from the Office of the President.

How interesting.

That is the kind of insider information this is. I do not want to say that it is a fact, but it is operational information, it requires verification, yet it is very, very plausible. Some witnesses have already confirmed to me that it was indeed Yermak who said: yes, it was them, and Maliuk will tell you everything about it. And then those Europeans told me that the exact same information Maliuk was giving them was also in Derkach’s hands. Word for word. So there you have it, that puts a full stop to everything we have been talking about. Who is in power today, what they are doing, what Derkach is doing here, what tasks they have. And taken together, all of it leads to things like this. That is why the Germans are moving ahead so confidently, because neither Yermak nor Zelenskyy will confirm that they were involved in that operation. But they forget that serviceman Serhii Kuznietsov, even if we assume he was involved, was doing it for the benefit of Ukraine.

As I have already said, Russia lost out on $200 billion. That is the biggest loss it has suffered, no matter how many tankers or anything else you might blow up. You are not going to get that kind of figure from those. And that amount keeps growing every day, because it would have been earning billions of dollars every day from it. So they are obliged to step into this story. This is what we have already discussed: instead of working for the state, they are trying to glorify themselves. Yermak is now supposedly helping the military. Yesterday he was throwing them in prison, today he is trying to help them. And the funniest part is something else. He has already said so publicly, but he has done nothing about it. And he never will.

Why not? He went to some unit somewhere, sat there at a table with some sausage...

Anything that genuinely harms the Russians, he will never do. Because he has obligations to them, some commitments, some arrangements. At least he did, because he knows that if Putin rescued his Krasikov, the one who shot a man in Berlin, then he keeps his word if Yermak ever deceives him on any of those arrangements.

It seems to me that Krasikov is still a more valuable figure. Why would Putin need Yermak?

I am talking about something else. Putin maintains his reputation. He shows: we rescue our own, and we kill traitors.

Let's move on to the good things. You hinted that you returned to service, despite these criminal cases hanging over you. What kind of service is this?

It is the Armed Forces. I will say this: nevertheless, in our troops, there are more positive people than those we mentioned today. Because indeed, they were simply placed there to carry out certain specific things. And the country was saved by those very guys who simply fight, from a soldier up to some captain, sergeant, colonel, or general. There are very many of them. And there are more of us. Well, not us, them, us. I count myself in their circle because, basically, they called me and said, "let's work." They understand that we can do something useful. Therefore, good will prevail. We will not remain silent. I hope more and more people will support me and those like me, those who tell the truth, because it is the truth that will set us free. Because Russia is a mass of lies and propaganda, and our pseudo-media people tried to create the same kind of bubble here.

How does Roman Chervinskyi envision victory for himself at the current stage of the war?

A clear setup of logistics, the elimination of corruption from all units, and the proper organization of internal service and counterintelligence. This will be the first step to victory. Without it, nothing will work. It cannot be skipped. Once we are convinced that we can resist, then the system will work. Because Putin has no system, no motivation. We have motivation in every warrior.

The negative story is that when I was dismissed, I asked to ask Yermak—what for? He said, "I will drive every patriot into the ground." Everyone who went on the first day, who took up arms, who were motivated—those who gave their lives because someone did not do their job: the intelligence officers and the military did not prepare for war. People gave their lives. This was the very wave that Yermak destroyed, that evil which he brought to our country along with Zelenskyy. And they continue, corrupting and looting funds during arms procurement.

And therefore, our victory is to first realize all this, remove them, and put them away for life. Let them sit there and show by their example that such things will not happen here. And only then will Russia truly be doomed.

Roman, thank you for the conversation!