Vitalii Shabunin: "Problem is not Yermak or Tatarov. They are its manifestation. Problem is Zelenskyy"

Author: Olha Moskaliuk

On 19 May, Vitalii Shabunin, chair of the board of the Anti-Corruption Action Center, said on his Facebook page that he had been discharged from military service: "My service is over. Having lost most of my eyesight, I am leaving Ukraine’s Armed Forces, which I voluntarily joined on the first day of the full-scale war." He has a hereditary condition, glaucoma, which means he can no longer serve in the military. He also attached medical documents to the post. Shabunin says he deliberately opted for maximum transparency to avoid speculation about his discharge.

In response, he faced a wave of hate, attacks from anonymous Telegram channels, and another round of accusations from his opponents. We mention this in our interview. However, our conversation is not only about his health, the war, or attacks from critics. We spoke about Zelenskyy and his personnel policy, the influence of Andriy Yermak and Oleh Tatarov, law enforcement agencies, the authorities’ fear of reforms and the future of our country. But we began with something personal.

- You gave a very detailed account of your illness, which is quite intimate. So let me ask: what is the condition of your eyes today?

- When the head of the State Bureau of Investigation and Zelenskyy’s prosecutor general leaked my naked photo, which I had taken for my wife, online, that was intimate. My account of my health was meant to remove all questions and debate. That is why I added medical documents from the military medical commission to that post.

You are asking what condition my eyes are in now? Bad. I have lost roughly 60% of my visual field. In fact, glaucoma is fairly common. My problem is that it is a hereditary family condition: my grandmother went completely blind because of it, then my mother, and now it is catching up with me. It cannot be treated because of the specific structure of the eye; its progression can only be slowed. What is the essence of it? Eye pressure compresses the optic nerve, and it dies off. Because of this, you do not simply see worse; you lose your visual field, which narrows into tunnel vision and then disappears. The only way to fight this disease now is to lower eye pressure with medication: putting drops in my eyes every day, sometimes twice a day. An important point: objectively, it is very easy to verify. There are three basic indicators, two of which (eye pressure and the percentage of optic nerve atrophy) are checked while I simply say nothing. In other words, they measure the pressure and do a CT scan of the optic nerve. The dynamics show everything clearly. So despite the rather difficult history with Ukraine’s military medical commission system, being discharged with this diagnosis is easier than with many others. Because there are objective indicators that cannot be falsified.

You know why it was easier for me to go through this procedure? And what, by the way, I would recommend to those trying to be discharged from the army. Having a good lawyer at hand is always a plus. It is extremely important to document the legal and procedural course of events at every stage. How does the discharge process work in the Ukrainian army? There is a military medical commission, which states: "Unfit for service." If a person is found unfit, the decision of that panel of doctors is approved by the central medical commission. That takes a week. Maybe two. In my case, a month passed between the military medical commission’s decision and its approval...

- Why was that?

- I have no idea! In my case, everything was very simple: three indicators, there was nothing to invent. But as soon as a lawyer’s request was submitted, everything immediately started moving.

I understand: this is often not a simple process. But if someone has already taken it on, my advice is this: where possible, have a lawyer by your side. It helps.

- What should someone do if they do not have one?

- Then here is something that should not be neglected: the Pryncyp Human Rights Center, for example, has very good guidance on many procedures, including discharge, the military medical commission, and the Medical and Social Expert Commission. They have a Telegram bot. It lays out step by step what needs to be done: what documents are required, what the deadlines are, and so on. In other words, anyone entering this process should clearly understand their rights and the bureaucratic stages involved.

- Do you know of any egregious cases where a person has, for example, a condition like yours but was not discharged?

- I am not deeply familiar with this field in general. But, for example, in the unit where I served over the past year, everyone was partially fit for service. If people are not discharged despite objective indicators that can simply be measured, then, it seems to me, this is no longer about systemic problems but about deliberate wrongdoing by people within that system.

- It will not be news to you that hate over your discharge has appeared on social media. How do you feel about that?

- I do not know what else I can do to show that everything is honest. I published the medical documents, the decision describing the diagnosis, and a lot of other things. Do you know why I explain my illness in such detail?

- Tell me. Because it seems as if you are almost justifying yourself, even though you should not have to.

- Of course, it is not exactly pleasant for me, as it would not be for any reasonable person. But public trust is what I work with, converting it into change and reform. In other words, the more people are willing to listen to my reasoning, the better.

I understand that, on the other side, SSU-linked Telegram channels are using this to the fullest. For what purpose? They are not fighting me personally. They need to reduce the level of trust in me. Because the higher the level of trust in me, the more people listen to my arguments that the corrupt wing of the SSU must be finished off, that Kravchenko and Sukhachov must be dismissed, that Yermak is simply inadequate. And this entire environment is obviously defending itself, and its defensive tool is to reduce the level of trust in me, which is achieved by smearing me. Naturally, my task is different. That is why I explain: this is an objective illness, here are the medical documents, and I do not know what else I can do.

- Why do you mention only the SSU? The Telegram channels linked to the President’s Office are also trying hard.

- By the way, everything changed significantly when Zhelezniak proved that the owners of key "anonymous" Telegram channels with millions of followers had been granted exemption from mobilization through the SSU. That is now concrete proof that all this filth, the smearing of journalists, editors, opposition politicians and activists, is not being done by some faceless actors, but specifically, at the very least, under the responsibility of the SSU’s corrupt rear-echelon section. And that is an entirely different story, because this is about state policy, not some obscure Telegram channels. This is another argument for why the corrupt rear-echelon wing of the Security Service must be rebooted, dismissed, cleaned out, and reformed.

- In the post I mentioned, you also wrote: "I entered Ukraine’s Armed Forces on the first day of the war as a soldier and am leaving as a senior sergeant. Defense Minister Umerov refused to sign my officer contract." What would you say to him now?

- I have nothing to discuss with him. What is there to talk about?! He has shown his complete inability to serve as minister. The biggest mistake the Anti-Corruption Action Center has ever made was supporting his appointment to that post.

- Why did you support him? What were the reasons?

- In fact, it is a long story. Ultimately, no arguments justify us. Our key mistake was that we supported a person, not institutional change. That was the root of the problem. In other words, even if he had been a brilliant manager, it was wrong for us as an organization to act that way. We have drawn our conclusions from that.

And what is there to discuss with him now? What? He is a leader utterly incapable of anything, a negotiator in the mold of someone "selling thin air." It is hard for me to imagine a more incompetent defense minister. Throughout his time in that post, he was "selling thin air" and left behind a ruined ministry and chaos.

- But now he also holds an important post, secretary of the National Security and Defense Council...

- By the decision of President Zelenskyy, who likewise made Yermak the second most powerful person in the country, a person who shaped state policy while consulting a fortune teller. It seems to me that Zelenskyy needs to seriously reconsider the criteria he uses to select people. Because he handed the power voters had given him to Yermak. And Yermak appointed and dismissed ministers and, in effect, decided key issues in a country at war. And now we have all found out that he was doing this while consulting, at best, a fortune teller, if not a person under the influence of the FSB.

- Are there still questions about that aspect, about whether there was FSB influence?

- Even if it was just a fortune teller, that is schizophrenia! It is truly beyond comprehension. Some kind of tragicomedy.

But again, responsibility for this lies with Zelenskyy, who kept Yermak by his side all this time. If he missed the mark so badly there, and it is already obvious to me that he has missed the mark just as badly with Umerov, then how can I trust his other personnel decisions?! Look at Sukhachov now. Complete inadequacy! Look at Kravchenko, same thing! Just blatant disregard for the law! These are also arguments showing that the president’s decisions are, to put it mildly, debatable, at least when it comes to personnel policy. Right?

- As I see it, his personnel decisions have always been of a similar nature.

- But now there is ironclad evidence in the most important personnel decision, regarding Yermak, that this was a massive blunder that cost Ukraine a great deal. So maybe it is finally time for the president to reconsider his approach to personnel decisions? Or for the people around him to somehow start bringing him back to reality?

- Where are these people supposed to come from? You know, when a new government comes in, after a while, we see that there is no "reserve bench." Zelenskyy does not have one either. If we switch to sarcasm, Kvartal 95 is running out of people who can be appointed.

- Regardless of our attitude toward Zelenskyy, he is the president of a country at war. Right now, for someone to enter public service, even at the highest levels, is not so much a matter of serving Zelenskyy as serving the country. Many people would be willing to do that. But the key problem is that, within this system of coordinates, they would not be able to properly serve Ukraine. What is the point of going to work under Kravchenko or Tatarov?! Yermak has been removed. Tatarov remains, as do the inadequate Kravchenko and Sukhachov, who can come for you at any time and simply lock you up.

In other words, under the current system, even extremely talented people who want to serve the country have no opportunity to do so. And every reasonable Ukrainian understands this. This is our tragedy!

- Let us imagine that Sukhachov, Kravchenko, Tatarov, and others are removed. The president remains in office. Would you go to work in the government?

- If the president removes them not because society forced him to, but because he has rethought his personnel policy, of course, I would. Everyone would! There is an illusion that Ukraine has no one to fill public service positions. So there were people willing to volunteer for the front, there are people willing to fight, but there is no one willing to enter public service in Kyiv? Seriously?! No, the problem is not that there are no people. The problem is that any sane manager understands that it is simply impossible to be effective in this system of Tatarov, Kravchenko, Sukhachov, and company. So the problem is that Zelenskyy needs to rethink his personnel decisions. And when that rethinking turns into real personnel changes, plenty of people will go and serve the country. It just does not look like that is going to happen. Remember, we had that discussion: is Yermak the problem or a symptom of it? It has been six months since he was dismissed, more than enough time to answer that question. Yermak is gone, so what has changed? The State Bureau of Investigation is just as inadequate. The SSU’s corrupt rear-echelon wing is the same. And the prosecutor general! We have never had anything like this, each one worse than the last. That is why we, at the Anti-Corruption Action Center, have stopped talking about a specific person altogether and are instead articulating the need for a competition-based appointment. In other words, what matters to us is not replacing surnames, but implementing a procedure that guarantees the best people are selected. Because the inadequate Kravchenko is now our shared problem, but the political responsibility lies with Zelenskyy.

So, Yermak left, but globally nothing in the system has changed. For me, this is ironclad proof that he was not the problem, but a symptom of it! The problem is Zelenskyy. You can replace Yermak with Budanov, Tatarov or "Papanov," anyone at all. Until the concept in Zelenskyy’s head changes, until it becomes about competence rather than personal loyalty, it does not matter who takes Yermak’s place.

- But Budanov has already taken that place!

- Not yet. Budanov does not have as much influence as Yermak had. And no one will anymore, because the system has started to crumble.

- Does Yermak still have any influence?

- He will no longer have the influence he had before. No one will follow his orders anymore. Previously, Sukhachov, Kravchenko and Poklad-linked SSU officers would line up in front of him. That will not happen now. But, again, I do not think Budanov has the kind of influence Yermak once had either.

- Is Zelenskyy capable of changing the concept you were just talking about?

- Do you want my honest answer or the optimistic one?

- The honest one.

- No, I do not believe adults change without a serious rethink. That is why, in its work, the Anti-Corruption Action Center is not betting on him changing, but on us as a society creating conditions in which he will be forced to do the right thing. Of course, if he changes, thank God! A miracle, great, we will work with that. But it would simply be unwise to count on it.

Our task at the Anti-Corruption Action Center is not to replace prosecutors general, defense ministers, and all of that. We stand for institutional transformation. Why does our theory of change work? Let us compare NABU, SAPO and the High Anti-Corruption Court, created according to our theory of change, with the godawful State Bureau of Investigation, the Prosecutor General’s Office, the corrupt wing of the SSU, and the Pechersk and Supreme Courts. Both have pre-trial investigations, both have courts...

- But there is a catch!

- Yes: competition and independence. That is why our theory of change is very simple: an independent head, selected through a competitive process and owing nothing to anyone, is one of the key criteria state institutions need in order to be effective, like NABU, SAPO and the High Anti-Corruption Court, rather than garbage, like the State Bureau of Investigation, the Prosecutor General’s Office and all the rest of them. This is not just our theory of change as the Anti-Corruption Action Center. Ten years of experience have shown that the State Bureau of Investigation does not work, while SAPO and NABU do. No one needs to take the Anti-Corruption Action Center’s word for it anymore. Everyone has eyes. Just look!

- NABU and SAPO also had to be defended in July last year...

- I dream of Ukrainian society being ready to defend the State Bureau of Investigation. I want the Bureau to work in such a way that, if the president tries to destroy it, young people will come out to defend it. We are all normal, reasonable Ukrainians. We want to have state institutions that we, as a society, will defend. We will only be able to have them if we force the current president to make the changes to the State Bureau of Investigation and the Prosecutor General’s Office that ensured the effectiveness of NABU and SAPO. This is not rocket science! Competitive selection and independence worked there, and they will work here. What else is there to think about?! Just take it and do it!

- Back in January, the president said the State Bureau of Investigation was about to be reformed. He instructed that a draft law be prepared. Two months ago, I sent a request to the President’s Office about this. The response was silence. What is this whole story about?

- We will not join the EU and will not receive the next tranche of European money if Zelenskyy and his MPs do not vote through the reform of the State Bureau of Investigation.

- But it does not exist!

- Right now, Zelenskyy and his MPs are doing everything possible to keep the State Bureau of Investigation capable only of political persecution and, pardon me, full of shit. Because that is what most of the Bureau is now.

Zelenskyy does not want the State Bureau of Investigation to be an independent, effective law enforcement agency. To be fair, Poroshenko did not want that either. And when he was still in power, I told his people: "Friends, look, you have created a politically dependent monster that will be the first to come after you in a completely lawless way. Both NABU and the State Bureau of Investigation will come after you, and you will feel the difference: according to the law and without any regard for the law." Now I say: "So, friends, how are things? How are you feeling? Have you felt the difference?" They reply: "You were right!"

So now I am asking the guys who realize they are paying the price for once creating that monster to pass this experience on to Zelenskyy’s people. Because if he does not reform the State Bureau of Investigation and the Prosecutor General’s Office, and does not clean out the corrupt rear-echelon clique in the SSU, he will be in prison six months after his term ends. Six months! Because if NABU and SAPO come after you, as you can see yourself, it is highly procedural, in a legally measured way. But his State Bureau of Investigation and the politically dependent Prosecutor General’s Office will come after him in an utterly lawless way. Something like what they are now doing to Zelenskyy’s political enemies. He does not understand this yet, but it is in his interest to leave office with a reformed, rebooted State Bureau of Investigation and Prosecutor General’s Office. Because if he does not do that, they will catch up with him very quickly.

- But Yermak does not believe NABU is catching up with him in a legally measured way.

- He can believe or not believe many things, but after being served with a notice of suspicion, he has already landed in court for a pre-trial restraint hearing. Can you imagine something like that happening, for example, to Baloha under Yushchenko?

- No!

- It would have been impossible to imagine!

- Or Medvedchuk under Kuchma.

- Exactly. My point is that we, Ukrainians, have done tremendous work: in less than ten years, we built functioning law enforcement agencies that can reach the president’s inner circle, his "right hand." The FBI in the United States is currently incapable of the kind of results NABU is demonstrating. In other words, we as a society created and then defended institutions that are stronger than the FBI! We have something to be proud of. And it was not the authorities who created them, it was us. Now we have to do exactly the same with the State Bureau of Investigation, the Prosecutor General’s Office and the corrupt wing of the SSU as we did with NABU and SAPO. There is no need to invent anything. Moreover, this is already written into the European Union’s requirements, except for the SSU, where it is a different story. In other words, it is very simple. If we, as a society, do not force, persuade or talk Zelenskyy, his MPs, Arakhamiia, Budanov and that whole company into reforming the State Bureau of Investigation and the Prosecutor General’s Office, we have no chance of joining the European Union. We will not even receive the next parts of assistance. Does Zelenskyy’s team understand this? Yes. They are now trying to persuade the EU to back down on these provisions. They will do anything to avoid reforming the Prosecutor General’s Office and the State Bureau of Investigation.

- Hiding behind the war?

- Yes! It is true that Ukraine needs money. That is not a lie. But telling everyone that they are not really letting you in, while for five months failing to submit a promised draft law on the State Bureau of Investigation to parliament, cannot help but irritate politicians in the West. And I understand them. You are pressuring us to do everything for your accession, and that is fair. You agreed to reform the State Bureau of Investigation yourselves. You, as president, announced it. Five months have passed, and you have not even submitted the draft law to parliament. And now you are demanding that we make a concession on this. Are you serious?!

- But the European Union is also seeing another interesting picture: the level of corruption in a country at war, the Mindich tapes and so on. It is one thing to talk about such things in Ukraine as it was before 2014. It is another thing now, when we have lost so many people, territories, and opportunities. What should be done about that?

- Western politicians are not idiots either; they see everything. We, as a country, are defending ourselves and fighting so that we are not destroyed. We have no other choice. And we are paying a terrible price for it. But this war has given us the opportunity to greatly speed up our accession to the EU. This is the only positive thing we can get from this war, apart from survival. The price we are paying while defending Europe has given us this chance. And Zelenskyy is not submitting the draft laws on the State Bureau of Investigation and the Prosecutor General’s Office, which he should have done the very next day after signing the Kachka-Kos plan. In three months, all of this could have been prepared and voted through. A country at war has put in your hands the opportunity to bring us into the EU, and instead you are defending the hopelessly inadequate Sukhachov and Kravchenko, because you need them as instruments of political pressure. I do not know whether Zelenskyy himself understands what this looks like from the outside. Your country is bleeding in a war. Europeans, whether they want to or not, are forced to somehow speed up our integration. And you, as president, are not fulfilling what you yourself agreed to! And everyone understands why. Because you need a controlled State Bureau of Investigation and Prosecutor General’s Office. There is no other interpretation. What other explanation does Zelenskyy have for not fulfilling the EU’s requirements? What is the reason?! There is none. It is very simple: I am not fulfilling the European Union’s requirements, which are necessary for the integration of a country that is bleeding, because I need a politically controlled Prosecutor General’s Office and State Bureau of Investigation. What for? To pressure my opponents inside the country. That is it! Very simple logic. And it is crystal clear to everyone: Western politicians, elites, business, the media, and Ukrainians. That is why I do not understand what presidential office Budanov is dreaming of. He is the head of the President’s Office. If these laws are not voted through, what exactly is he planning to take into an election?

- It has long been said that Budanov’s appointment is a so-called "successor operation." Is that what you mean?

- It is very simple. Budanov is part of Zelenskyy’s team and the head of his Office. If President Zelenskyy and his entire team do not vote for, or block, the reforms needed for EU accession, then he is responsible for that too. What is there to fantasize about?! He fully shares all of Zelenskyy’s failures, just as he shares all his victories. The story of a "successor" who tried very hard but failed does not work.

On the other hand, let us talk about motivation. If they do all this, Budanov will go into the election and say: "Friends, we squeezed out everything we could to bring EU accession closer. We did our part." That is a good story to take into an election. And the choice is now theirs. What matters more to each of them? If they are smart and simply use their heads, it is in all their interests to reform the Prosecutor General’s Office and the State Bureau of Investigation. First, because they will have something to take into an election. Second, because these agencies will not come after them.

- Why will they not come after them?

- They will do it in a lawful, procedural way. But that is a completely different story. Because I assume they will come after them anyway. But one thing is according to the law, and another is through complete lawlessness. Because they can come after someone the way they did with Mahamedrasulov: by locking him up in a pre-trial detention centre for six months on a completely fabricated case. Why do Zelenskyy and Budanov suddenly think the same will not happen to them once they lose power?

- Maybe they think they will be able to flee, like Mindich?

- To Israel?! I hope people have somewhat bigger plans for life than hiding in Israel. After all, they seem to be figures of a larger scale: a president, a former head of Defence Intelligence. If there were any smart people on that side, the bargaining would not be about whether there will be reform or not. It would be: "Okay, we will vote for everything, but it comes into force, say, at the end of the war, when it no longer threatens us." That would be a discussion. But no. They want to rule forever.

- It seems Zelenskyy does not want to give up power at all and will cling to it until the very end...

- Last spring, we all worked together to block a law that would have given the National Guard the right to use firearms against peaceful protests. To my mind, that kind of attempt to hold on to power is the most dangerous. Not because anyone can retain power illegally in Ukraine that way. It would push us into the kind of street confrontation that would make us extremely vulnerable to Russian aggression once again. It is impossible to hold on to power illegally in Ukraine. Others have already tried to falsify elections. And they were smarter people, with a much firmer grip on control. And they failed. Just compare Mindich and Kliuiev. They are worlds apart! You saw their politics, their level of corruption. Mindich and Tsukerman against Kliuiev and Liovochkin. Of course, both groups are, excuse me, scum. But the intellectual level is completely different! After the Revolution of Dignity, we were still digging out Kliuiev’s schemes for another five years. And what do we have here? "A barrier gate, we will pay..." It honestly makes me sick.

Again, if those people failed to falsify the vote and keep power, then these ones certainly will not succeed. But the degree of trauma in society is such that any confrontation is unlikely to be peaceful. And that puts the entire country in danger. So they need to be urged very strongly not to even think of going down that road, of trying to hold on to power illegally in any way. And they will not be able to do it legally. Zelenskyy will not win the next election. He will not!

And what is my appeal to his people? Once you finally understand this, show him the numbers and the trend. Because maybe then Zelenskyy will start thinking not about the election, but about what comes after it. Maybe that will finally push him to carry out the necessary reforms, at least in law enforcement. Specifically in the State Bureau of Investigation, the Prosecutor General’s Office and this corrupt rear-echelon wing of the SSU.

- We still have to live long enough to see the election, Vitalii.

- Amen, sister!

- The situation on the front is difficult. Judging by what is happening, Russia is not only not going to stop but is planning to intensify its offensives...

- I see how it was not the authorities but society from within that changed what may be the most conservative state institution, the army. Now it seems that, at least at the political level, these newly emerged approaches and principles are being supported to some extent. It seems to me that our greatest weakness is not how the country is fighting on the battlefield, but whether the political elite is capable of generating resources for this war. That is where the vulnerable point is. Today, this story is more complicated. Because Ukrainians held Russia back when the state apparatus effectively did not exist. Do you remember the first months of the full-scale war?

- Chaos.

- But comparing that army with the current one is, again, like night and day. So every day we are paying a terrible price on the battlefield, but it seems to me that our weakness is not there, but here, in the rear, in political administration.

- Speaking of politics, why is Zelenskyy holding on so tightly to Tatarov? Yermak is already gone, but Tatarov is still in place.

- Because this is Zelenskyy’s style of political management: manual control and disregard for the law.

- But he did have to part ways with Yermak.

- NABU and SAPO caught up with Yermak.

- Is there nothing to catch Tatarov on?

- He is much smarter. Tatarov is a more dangerous enemy for Ukraine than Yermak. Tatarov, as a function, is needed only by a president who relies not on the law and institutions, but on manually going after political opponents and critics. What else is he needed for?! There is already an interior minister, the head of the National Police, and a prosecutor general. Why does this story still need Tatarov? Because when you yourself do not understand the processes, you need someone you can tell, for example: "Go after Poroshenko!" or "Go after Bohdan!" And he goes after them. Even though he is capable of many other things, Zelenskyy does not need that. Could Tatarov write a law on reforming the State Bureau of Investigation? Of course! He does not want to.

- He does not need it?

- The main thing is that the president does not need it. If Zelenskyy told him to write it, he would do it. So, once again: the key problem is not Yermak and not Tatarov. They are only a symptom of it. Zelenskyy does not want this.

Look at this example. While I was serving, my team at the Anti-Corruption Action Center kept themselves entertained: they submitted six petitions to the president’s website calling for the prosecutor general’s dismissal. Six! This is an ironclad presidential power. Those guys did not register a single one of them, sending back complete nonsense!

- For example?

- "Not within the president’s powers." We submit a petition that repeats word for word a similar one about some previous prosecutor general, which they had registered earlier. An absolute circus! If Zelenskyy disregarded the law in such a small matter as a petition, why should I believe that he will not disregard, for example, election law during elections? I repeat once again: the problem is not Yermak or Tatarov. They are its manifestation. The problem is Zelenskyy.

- Yermak with a notice of suspicion is already a "big fish," isn’t he?

- Of course! Who is bigger than him? Only the president. How can anyone now accuse NABU and SAPO of failing to catch the "big fish"? They have already caught the biggest possible "fish" and are now starting to gut it.

- But the "mysterious" Vova remains, the owner of one of the mansions in Dynasty...

- Perhaps it is actually good for Ukraine right now that NABU and SAPO cannot investigate the president. In this whole story, everyone understands everything. But there is an option to "save face": for Zelenskyy, "I am not involved"; for Western elites, "well, you are sorting it out there, well done." Now imagine if that option did not exist. It would be harder for all of us.

- Still, there is a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them.

- That is exactly what I keep repeating: "Friends, it is hard to imagine a situation in which they will not come after all of you. Because you have made a mess of things. But it is in your interest for everything to happen lawfully, and for you to be tried by the High Anti-Corruption Court, not the current Pecherskyi Court."

- By the way, about the Pecherskyi Court…

- Oh, I already know everyone there!

- On 26 May, a hearing was held in your case, which was opened by the State Bureau of Investigation. At the hearing, prosecutors asked the court to impose a pre-trial restraint on you in the form of a personal undertaking, but with a ban on leaving your place of residence without permission. What does that mean?

- Kravchenko’s minions want house arrest for me. But everyone is very uncomfortable with that, so they write it directly: do not leave Kyiv Oblast, Boryspil district, the village of Hnidyn, and my home address. After I return to service, I will be taking my children to school in Kyiv. In other words, with that wording, I will not be able to do that. My village is basically dacha communities outside the city. So I leave the house, and 20 metres later, Kyiv already begins. And to get to a shop, I would have to run through other dacha plots, climb over fences, swim, but I still cannot get out onto the Boryspil highway, because that is no longer Hnidyn. I was tempted to send Kravchenko a big pack of Pampers in gift wrapping. I will repeat this to you in the interview: "Mr Kravchenko, you are a cheap coward. Take over my case as prosecutor and sign this shit yourself. Why are you setting up your prosecutors?!" I understand that it is not the prosecutor who came up with this. Three prosecutors sit in court, and all of them look away. Kravchenko likes to get PR out of cases, does he not? So I suggest: "Come and get PR out of mine! There will be plenty of media!" That would be honest. In reality, everything here is as simple as it gets: this is obviously a political case. So show what kind of prosecutor and lawyer you are. But no!

- As Budanov said: "A three-letter word: Uvy!"

- "Uvy!" Just pay attention: SSU-linked Telegram channels, on instructions from the President’s Office, were saying this was a case about draft evasion, fictitious service and combat payments. But in the notice of suspicion, they accuse me of legally spending five months out of four years of service on temporary duty at the National Agency on Corruption Prevention. I have an order! In other words, they are not challenging the legality of the temporary duty assignment; they are claiming that I was at the NACP and did not do what I was supposed to do. They are shown documents, publications from the official website, and they just stonewall. Kravchenko, you understand that you have cobbled together garbage, do you not? Then take over the case and deal with it! Because I am not interested in wiping the floor with these prosecutors, even in the Pecherskyi Court. Since Kravchenko did this, let him defend it! But he is a petty little man. I remember the "fights" with Kolesnikov, with Kliuiev, whom we mentioned today. They really were scumbags and corrupt officials, but they were on a different level! If, under that old Donetsk crew, a prosecutor general had published a photo of me naked, his own people would have finished him! Because that is not how things were done. This kind of pettiness is just disgusting. I am talking about how small-time everything has become. They said: Yermak is a major figure, the brains, America, negotiations. And in the end, what? Feng shui! Behind that whole facade, there is emptiness and worthlessness.

The only thing saving all this baseness of Zelenskyy’s team, especially its law enforcement wing, is the war and the country’s objective need to survive. We simply have less time for all of this. But the war will end sooner or later. That is why Zelenskyy will never win an election.

- We need to keep the country standing.

- That is exactly my point: the sooner Zelenskyy realizes this, the greater the chance that we will keep the country standing. I keep stressing this to him and his team: "Friends, snap out of it!" Your SSU lets through a deputy prosecutor general whose entire family has Russian passports. You missed the "two million to Moscow" story! While the combat arm of the SSU is doing brilliant things and dying for the country, their corrupt colleagues are destroying everything from within! How could the story with Vdovychenko’s Russian links have been missed?! How could they fail to see this?! And do you know why they are keeping her in a post with access to state secrets?

- Why?

- Because sooner or later, Zelenskyy will have to get rid of Kravchenko, and Vdovychenko will become acting prosecutor general, and she is no better than him. That is the only reason they are keeping her there!

- If anything, they have something they can use to pressure her.

- They do not even need to! People like that are happy to do what they are told. The depth of institutional degradation here is very serious. Look at parliament: ready to comply! And this is our shared pain as a society: institutions are becoming increasingly pathetic. But we hope Ukrainian society has received a "vaccination" against populism. And if you look at a parliamentary party list and see "empty" people there, such as wedding photographers, then do not vote for it! Dear Ukrainians, let us finally learn from the mistakes with Zelenskyy and his MPs. Because, God willing, when we win the war, the next parliament and executive branch will be no less important for the country’s survival than the current ones. After all, we will be preparing for the next confrontation with the ruscists. That is obvious! So if Zelenskyy, Budanov and the team do not bring results on European integration and reforms into the election, they have no chance. If they now start moving quickly along the reform tracks required by the EU, reforms that are simply necessary, they will at least have something to take into the election race. Ukrainians are not stupid! I do not know who proposed this new communications and electoral strategy to Budanov: I will stand on the sidelines and then become the successor. It is simply pathetic and unworkable.

I propose a better one: carry out strong reforms, and Ukrainians will definitely elect you. Imagine being the team that fulfilled all the requirements for joining the EU. Dear team of Zelenskyy’s Office, you can keep trying to spread anti-European narratives through Telegram channels, but it will not work. There is a consensus in society on joining the European Union. You can reduce that level of support with narratives, but it will never fall below half. Even you will not manage that. So stop doing this and start working on reforms.

- I will return to the court cases. Apart from the Pecherskyi Court, there is also the Dniprovskyi Court, which on 13 May found you guilty of beating pro-Russian blogger Filimonenko...

- Wait, the court recognized him as a journalist! At the very first hearing eight years ago, I said: "Your Honour, I hit that bastard. I admit it. In fact, I said it out loud before I hit him. He really drove my colleague to a nervous breakdown. But he is not a journalist! And those are different articles." In other words, a minor assault against a private citizen is one thing, but against a journalist, it carries different liability and a different sentence. And there was no moderate bodily harm. His injuries were "drawn up" two weeks after the incident. And this trial has been going on for eight years. About six months ago, the judge suggested: "Let us close the proceedings because the statute of limitations has expired." I replied: "No, we are hearing this through to the end." And I really was prepared to be found guilty of minor bodily harm. Because I admitted it, what is there to invent?! But then the judge reads out the verdict, and there it is: moderate bodily harm and a journalist. Seriously?! He is even under Zelenskyy’s sanctions!

Look, this case was fabricated against me by Avakov and Lutsenko with Poroshenko’s tacit consent, and they have not influenced politics for seven years now. But the garbage they set in motion is still working. What is my point? For us as a society, it is not just important to reboot the procedure for selecting the leadership of the State Bureau of Investigation and the Prosecutor General’s Office, although that obviously needs to be done. We need to clean these institutions of all this garbage that is ready to serve any political government. Because one way or another, Kravchenko and Sukhachov will be gone. Even if we, as a society, suddenly fail and do not force the authorities to reform the institutions, a change of president will reset the heads of the State Bureau of Investigation and the Prosecutor General’s Office. But the people who carried out this garbage under Lutsenko, under Avakov and under Zelenskyy will carry it out under other presidents too. They remain in place when the leadership changes. That is why reforming institutions, especially law enforcement agencies and the courts, has two dimensions: first, an honest competitive selection process for choosing the head, so that the person is independent and effective. Second, a parallel clean-up of all these enforcers.

- You know what I remember? Almost a year ago, you and I recorded an interview, before the Mindich tapes, Yermak’s dismissal and the notice of suspicion served on him. Back then, you said: "Were it not for the war, the conversation with this government would be completely different." So when can that conversation happen?

- It will begin if this government suddenly tries to hold on to power illegally...

- No one knows when the war will end. But it is obvious to everyone that it will not be in the near future. So what should be done?

- It is in our interest that this tough conversation does not happen during the war. And the only way for us as a society to achieve that is to defend NABU, SAPO, and the High Anti-Corruption Court, and to demand reform of other law enforcement agencies.

- Do you think there could be attacks on NABU and SAPO again?

- Look, the shit involving Mindich, Halushchenko, Zelenskyy’s team and Yermak would have surfaced anyway. It is good that this happened in a procedural way, in court, and people can see that here it is, punishment is already beginning. Society has received the beginning of justice. Because this is an investigation.

But what if the shit had surfaced and there had been no hope of punishment? Can you imagine what a blow that would have been to society?! So thank God we have NABU and SAPO, which did not merely stir this up; it would have come out anyway, because this is Ukraine. But at the same time, they gave hope that there will be justice and punishment in the end. So we need issues to be resolved in this way, so that we do not have to have a tough conversation with Zelenskyy and company at least until the end of the war. And after that, we will sort it out.

Olha Moskaliuk, "Censor.NET"

Photo: Vitalii Shabunin’s Facebook page