"I saw them shooting at each other. It was ghastly sight," Armored Group Commander Oleksandr Afanasiev
Oleksandr Afanasiev has been at war since 2014 and has seen how attitudes toward the military have changed over the course of ten years of fighting. He has come a long way since starting his fight at the age of 20. The commander of the armored group of the K-2 battalion of the 54th Separate Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine told about how Russians fight, why suicides are not uncommon among them, what the Ukrainian army lacks and how he sees victory in an exclusive interview with Anna Miroshnychenko in the program "Who is with Miroshnychenko?"
My name is Oleksandr Afanasiev, I am the Сommander of the Armoured Group of the K-2 battalion of the 54th Mechanised Brigade. We are holding the defence in the Siversk salient.
- Before the interview, we talked about how many years have you been at war?
- Since 2014. I started out as a machine gunner in 2014, in Sloviansk, Nikolaievka, I was a machine gunner, a grenade launcher for a long time, then a commander of a reconnaissance unit, we went through the Siverskyi Donets, sailed in the grey zone near Shchastia. They told me I had to become an Armoured Group Commander. I used to be afraid to approach tanks, and to be honest when you don't understand how it works, I was afraid, it was like a "coffin on wheels" for me. Every soldier dreams of hitting a tank, I knew that for sure, I had that dream too. Somehow, we gathered a group, got people and, thank God, managed to assemble a combat-ready unit that performs the task.
- Are you not afraid of tanks now?
- I ride in them myself. In fact, in the first battle, I went to a case pointing, it was very close, I said I would go alone, and I took two crews, and I would be the commander of one. I was asked why would I do that? The commander said, 'If you've made that decision, go ahead. So I went and somehow got involved, and it worked, and I try to go with the guys all the time, which is very motivating because it's one thing to give orders to a unit, and another thing to give an order and lead them into battle, which is very important at this small level of commander.
- What is the situation in Siversk now, what is happening there?
- Constant air, artillery, shelling, rocket attacks, Lancet and FPV attacks. In general, there is no city as such anymore, but 800-900 civilians live there, plus the garrison itself, which is being moved to the front line because the front line is in front of Siversk and, let's say, the guys live there, perform combat missions, but of course, there is no city.
- What conditions do you live in there now? Can you tell us?
- As usual, like everyone else, there are dugouts, there's nothing there, like in the war, as much as possible to save the lives of the personnel, to survive, you have to hide because you might not wake up. There is no possibility to live in houses anymore.
- Do you have enough equipment now, and what is its condition?
- There can never be enough of it, there can never be enough shells for a soldier, there can never be enough equipment, in general, when I hear that everything is fine, everything is enough - this cannot be, an artilleryman never has enough shells, a mortar man never has enough mines, tanks never have enough, there must always be a reserve and more, more, more. The more it is, the better, because a tank is a consumable, it performs combat missions and at some moment, it will be destroyed. If it is destroyed, God willing, the crew will survive, so here's another one for you, and you can continue to perform your tasks so that they are not left without a vehicle.
- Is tank maintenance expensive and time-consuming?
- Well, it's a constant process, the vehicle breaks down non-stop during the season, so I chose the tactic that I need to break everything down first, repair it, and then it will have some reserve, plus it needs to be operated. As long as the tank is travelling, fighting very often, it performs combat missions, and when it is not, it starts to fail.
- Do you work with foreign equipment?
- Well, if we don't consider the M 113 to be just a hauling unit that transports troops, takes the wounded, and transports people, then I have never seen any foreign equipment in the form of a tank.
- Is it in your area? You're not saying that they don't exist, are you?
- It's there, I just haven't seen it yet.
- And how did you see it, were the Russians preparing for this full-scale invasion, or was it a surprise for them too, they were told to go?
- I talked to the first prisoner on 20 February, a sergeant, a tank gunner, of a guards unit, who wanted to break in with his unit, together with a commander who was also captured, who led the attack and his vehicle was hit by our tank, our tank hit their tank and the gunner and the commander, who was a commander, were captured and this sergeant was also in the vehicle and was also captured. I remembered him - he had a Ukrainian surname and we talked, I said, "Did you know there would be a war? Where are you going? To exercises. When we started talking about tanks, he said that we had an anti-drone grill - why on earth. Now there is the anti-drone cage from FPV, but back then the only threat was the Javelin itself, because everyone knew perfectly well that the missile was flying from the top down, so they were already defending themselves against the type of weapon we had, and we had to spend time on it, I think it was not on 24 February, but much earlier.
- Of the enemy tactics that you have seen since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, what has surprised you the most? The things that make you look and say, 'Guys, I could never in my life imagine that you could fight like this...
- Mechanised assaults, they are still going on - without proper reconnaissance, mechanised assaults, I have seen crews not knowing the way, tanks falling into ditches, not being able to drive, not being told that there is a shell crater from the explosion of 30 TMs a long time ago, and if they go there, they are not allowed to leave, the tank just falls down with the crew and can't get out of there anymore, or they get into a situation where the enemy is on all sides and they were destroyed, especially near Chernihiv, these attacks, they were persistent, the tanks were forward, they did not turn around in combat formation and just drove in columns. When I talked to the gunner of this tank battalion commander who was captured, I asked him, "Did you shoot at people? He said no. And when did you shoot? He said he was shooting at the planting. I said - where? Well, just to the right, to the left, he shot at the planting. So there were people there. No, I didn't shoot at people. It was just like that.
- And these stories when they are advanced, and immediately they are hurried up, shot?
- I don't know, I liked the story of the Wagners, we had a walkie-talkie of their killed commander, I listened to their motivations, they were the best in the whole war because I had never heard anything like it. Roughly speaking, their commander knew that their group had entered our planting and said, "You need to move 300 metres down from your point, which means moving to our platoon strongpoint, which is already very dangerous, so it's a very short distance and they are not leaving, and they see from the drone that they are not leaving and say, "I'm going to adjust a dragon Gorynych at you, they called it a gun, and I'll just kill you all out there, so that's the motivation. Plus, I'll "send you on leave", kill in action, freeze you ( jargon, to prohibit prisoners from communicating with any cell, prison block, transfer and even central and zone without the approval of the thieves in law - ed. note), all the jargon associated with crime.
- Do you think these criminal elements are still at war, or has another category gone away?
- Of course, they have lost a lot, they were the first to leave, but they are still there because they were given the opportunity to get up and go, legally kill and get big money that they had never seen in their lives.
- Have you ever considered Russia a weak opponent?
- No, never, it's the biggest country in the world with such resources and people, let's say, the orders they are following, I don't understand at all. Mentally, no country and no nation would carry out such suicidal orders, because I see them shooting each other, peeling their caps, I can't understand it. No matter how hard it is, what do you have to do to take your life away? They are doing it and they are doing it en masse, on all fronts - we are watching it on telegram channels and we are watching it too where we are, it is happening en masse.
- How do you explain these suicides? Why?
- I think it's more hopeless knowing that our own people won't come for them, because I always believe, I know for example, that no matter what happens, we won't be left behind. When we leave, the probability that the tank will be hit near the enemy is very high, but I know that it's better not to get out of it if it's still in a state where it's not on fire, because there will be a possibility that a group will come to pick us up or an evacuation will come, and they just know that it's hopeless, they are in a situation where there are no options, and I just saw them shaking, shouting into the walkie-talkies, things like that. It's a ghastly sight, they are running away from the drones, they are being told to stay put, there are no shelters, even though these commanders know for sure that they cannot hide, the order is given, they obey, and those who cannot shoot themselves.
- It's a strange question - do you ever watch a film and feel sorry for that person? Doesn't that happen?
- I feel sorry for the young guys who were really deceived or something. There was this guy from Wagner, Andriy was his name, he came as a machine gunner, he was one of the lucky ones, he was the only one of the whole group to survive, only one shrapnel damaged his finger, and so there were many of sharpels. They gave him a machine gun, he was a tough guy, and two small boxes of ammunition. I said, "Do you know what this means? That you are a short-lived thing. They said - for you for five minutes. If you had been prepared to hold the defence, to assault, you should have been given several thousand rounds of ammunition to fight, but you were given just to leave. We talked, there was no one to trust, everyone in captivity was probably good.
- Technologically, Russia is superior to us, isn't it, in everything?
- I think it's the scale, I think it's the scale plus their financial capabilities and their allies. Specifically, the weapon that worries me all the time is Lancets, which really showed an incredible result, big problems, and it is a serious weapon. The way they work with it is serious, I would really like to see such weapons in Ukraine and as many of them as possible because these Lancets do the job. There are hits on cars, we usually fight them, we set up simulation devices, it happens. They just hit a simulation device and told the Kremlin's "laundress" of Solovyov, that they had destroyed a tank, put on a song, but in fact it was wooden, it was obvious, but it was specially set up to show that there was a track roller, that there was a tank and all the camouflage equipment - mesh, camouflage netting, chain-link - everything was done to protect this simulation device, so they got caught.
- Do you see the end of the war now?
- Any war will end in negotiations, but on what terms. My wish would be that Ukraine would defend our interests with dignity, because of course there may be some concessions or compromises, but not at the cost of those guys who died, who were promised Ukraine 1991 because they are no longer alive, they believed in Ukraine 1991, and I want to believe that it will be so.
- You do understand that even if there is some kind of conversation, not everyone will agree to these conditions, there will be a lot of dissatisfied people if they define the borders?
- Those who live comfortably, if we talk about Ukrainian society, this is my subjective opinion, will certainly be satisfied with peace, because if the war is just beginning to approach, of course, you want it to stop, so that it does not affect you, they may be dissatisfied somewhere, But those families in which people are at war, those families in which loved ones have died, of course, they will also be painfully compromising, I think that these people will have more power behind them because their motivation to defend the interests of their loved ones is much greater than for money and comfort.
- Do you think will there be negotiations, compromises, as you say, this year?
- I would like to see the war end as soon as possible, but I say on terms that would not offend the army, that those who are losing their time, health, risk, those who have died, that they would understand why they did it, that we defended ourselves, because it would be an abnormal conversation from the position of the weak.
- What offends the soldier now?
- We need people, replacements, rotation, it turns out that we live in a common house called Ukraine, this is our common problem, we didn't declare war on anyone, we were attacked, we went to defend Ukraine, some couldn't for one reason or another, but now years have passed, those who were 27 years old, 25 years old then by law could not be drafted, now maybe, guys, 25 years old is the best time to fight. I started fighting in my 20s, and I felt quite comfortable because I was young, enthusiastic, eager to prove myself, and I know that in principle, if it is still a bit early in your 20s because of the recklessness, then 25 is already an adult age, you can go to work. As my combatant said, I just don't want to quarrel, but I have to take my own and go to defend my home, my mother, my wife, my house, because when I do this, I do it for the common good, it doesn't mean that I have to be harnessed to the last, and someone else will live and enjoy their life, especially since it has a tendency to end.
- So you are now harnessed, as you say?
- This was my choice, but it doesn't mean that those people who don't want to, they don't have to, we have a law and let's say that those who were born in Ukraine, receive benefits, go to Europe with our passport, can live a civilian life during a full-scale war because air defence works, and the guys work so that you don't get bombed in Lviv once and for all but you have to participate in this too. If you can't fight, volunteer, if you can't volunteer, donate.
- There are some people who say that I have put in my donation, and that's it.
If I was earning 25 hryvnias a month before the war, and if I give 3,000 hryvnias out of that 25,000 and stay at home, I think it's not okay. It depends on whether you donate what you can. When you give away a normal amount of money per month, having a good income, and give 2 thousand hryvnias and think that this is normal, then we will definitely not come to anything good.
- Is it enough in terms of provisioning, in terms of cash payments?
- Thank God, everything is fine, of course, a soldier should be paid more. Why? Because this is a job in any country in the world during active hostilities, and he should earn enough. Why? Seriously, he risks his life every day. It's not just the infantry who are at war, especially the infantry. In fact, I believe that infantry are now saintly people who are fighting because the level of their use in combat is maximum. A tanker fought, moved to the rear a little bit, yes, you are bombed but you are not constantly on the front line. The firepower used against the infantry - small arms, AGS, mortars, aircraft - all of it is firing at the infantry, and it is very difficult psychologically and morally, even I say that time creeps differently there.
- What is a normal salary for a military man in the current situation?
- I think - as much as the state can, we are not fighting for money, when I went to war in 2022, I did not know that money would be paid at all, it is absolutely clear that when Chernihiv was surrounded, it was not needed so much, that is, I did not know that money would be paid and I was not interested in it, I was interested in defending our state. But if they are paying, then if there is such a possibility, then we should pay as much as the state can - if they can pay 100 thousand on the front line, let them pay 100 thousand, if they can pay more, then we should pay more.
- What do you personally spend your money on?
- For the family.
- A lot of people will write in the comments - oh, they have salaries of 100 thousand.
- It's very simple - the situation at the frontline is that they provide a lot of food, but what kind of food is it - people like me may have health problems, i.e., for example, I cannot eat preservatives, I cannot eat stewed meat, because I have specific problems, I can be hospitalised, I want to buy something a little different, of course, we also spend money on food that is more, let's say, civilian, we spend money on some better quality things, because whatever you say, the clothing that is issued by the Armed Forces, I think, should be better, of course, we look at our stormtrooper guys, and I think they have only weapons from the regulation, and even that is not a fact. Normal shoes cost 300 euros, trousers, someone can donate something, in this way. Plus, the constant use of this uniform means that it off much faster than it would have done a little further away from the war.
- Do you need to send something home?
- The biggest expense is the house, first of all, there are no men at home, a woman needs a man to hook up, weld, build, maintain, so people are hired and it costs money, plus utility bills, food and for the soldiers of our brigade, Bakhmut, permanent deployment, generally formed in Donetsk region, the guys who fight in the brigade are usually from the occupied territories and they have lost everything, that is, their families live in other regions and rent housing.
- Sometimes people still make money from such families, because they know that a military man earns money...
-War to some is boon to others, it's always been like that, it depends on how they are treated. I had a conversation with a soldier, he is from Dobropillia, which is also in the Donetsk region, people who came from Ocheretyne, they just gave their apartment, which was empty, so that they could pay for electricity and utilities - I think it's decent. And when you come to Lviv, you see a shed for the price of a 5-star hotel in Egypt, and you don't really understand why.
- How do people in Berdychiv perceive you when you arrive? They say, "Oh, Afanasiev is at war...
- They don't say anything at all, what can they say to me? Their views have already changed, for example, at the beginning of the war I was asked whether I wanted coffee. We don't need anything, but the very fact that there was this social unity, that our nation united with the army, now they are more afraid of me, in case I am a Military Police officer or a TCR officer, maybe I am a TCR officer and now I will give you a draft notice, even some people avoid me. This is the situation now, people are afraid of the army.
- Why do you think this happened?
- Because, unfortunately, those who wanted to go to war either stayed in the ranks and were in the service constantly, the leave for 10 days, or were killed, or were disabled in training centres. And those who don't want to, of course, are afraid. Plus those who have found themselves... In my city of Berdychiv, many people feel comfortable living socially, because such patriotic guys have gone to the front and are fighting, and those who stayed behind have taken social places, become civil servants, held normal positions, and in principle, they are doing well, the level of competition was very low.
- Many civilians say that they are not satisfied with some of the internal moments that are happening in the country, and they have great expectations for the military, and they say that when the war is over, the military will return and they will ask them to restore order. Do you see any desire among your comrades and colleagues to work politically in the middle of the state after the war and after the victory?
- Of course, someone will want to fulfil themselves. In general, there will be such a syndrome, I call it the 2017th year syndrome' because in 2015 we were cool guys, in 2014 we were adored, and in 2016 we became migrant workers who came for salaries, and by 2018 many people just left for civilian life and got into a new war, because you are a "crazy ATO guy", you are not hired, you have no education because you did not study but fought, many guys were out of the loop, some went to some law enforcement agencies, some stayed on the sidelines to fight for their rights. I, for example, socialised a few years after the war so that I could somehow exist.
- After the war, what do you want to do first? What do you want to do that you are not doing now?
- I would build something interesting in my city, I would do something like that because I'm looking at Berdychiv now, I have the impression that it's somewhere in the Siversk area, because it's shattered, shattered, in an abnormal state, and I would like to put the city in order a little bit, maybe with the help of a public organisation, maybe as a civil servant, time will tell.
- You want some politics, right?
- Why politics? Politics means representation, power. It may also depend on whether these tools will allow me to use my desire to help myself and people, because when you live in the city, you can help yourself and people will be pleased.
- The situation in the Kharkiv region is difficult now, as you can see, and there are a lot of discussions. Perhaps it's not for us to discuss it, but still...
- I am fighting in a different direction, but in fact they are... This war, of course, when the enemy left the Kharkiv region, they definitely wanted to return there, and now they started fighting. I think it all depends on the units that are holding the defence and on the Ukrainian nation to help their units, because it's no secret that as soon as a unit is engaged in active combat, not just holding the defence, it has a huge consumption of drones, both kamikaze and lost UAVs, The more drones you have, the safer it will be for even those crews to use them, because when a pilot is afraid to fly a little further because there is better electronic warfare, but it adds to the possibility of hitting the enemy, then if he knows that he has 50 drones, not 2, he may take a risk and perform the task better.
- There are many discussions about how Russians were able to enter Ukraine from the Kharkiv region.
- On foot, like.
- Who should we appeal to here, the soldier, the soldier or the command, or who?
- And why a soldier? A soldier fighting on the border is already there when the enemy comes, and his main desire is to survive, right? And he will do his best to do so, because it is logical. Why did the enemy pass through - perhaps there were not enough means to stop them. I also do not advise thinking that it was necessary to stand to the death on that border and put 3-4 thousand of the best guys there to hold 2-3 kilometres of the field, it may be better to retreat, as we have been doing since the beginning of the war, we did not stand there to the death, if you see that there are a lot of enemies, you may need to retreat and then systematically destroy them.
- Do you think the Russians have the capacity to reach Kharkiv?
- I think not. Their pace of advance in the first days would have shown that. At this rate, it is already shrinking, the front is already stabilizing a little bit, and I think by the time they reach Kharkiv, they may have run out of that group 20 times over.
- What's your motivation now? You're going back to the front and you're going to work there again and you're going to be in Siversk again, we don't know what the situation will be like there, what are you going there with?
- I'm going with the desire to survive, to win, to last to the end, to see how it ends, it's very interesting. I am very worried. I was travelling with the guys once, and I said that it would be frustrating to die now, because I want to see how it ends, because in 2022 I thought that they would kill us soon, but we need to make the most of it... now I don't want to die, I want to see where we will come to, it's an interesting moment, yes, it's difficult, but I know that we will pass and after the difficult part it will be good, I want to see how good it will be.
Anna Miroshnychenko, "Who is with Miroshnychenko?"
