"When political relations between local government and Presidential Office are tense, we can immediately see it in statistics of criminal proceedings," Dmytro Bilotserkovets
After the Verkhovna Rada created a Temporary Special Commission on the effectiveness of the authorities in Kyiv, Kyiv City Council members responded by creating their own Temporary Control Commission on the interaction of local governments with the central government. It was headed by Dmytro Bilotserkovets, co-chair of the UDAR (Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform) faction and a member of the Kyiv City Council’s committees on budget and socio-economic development.
However, the dialogue between the heads of the two commissions began with a public conflict that escalated into a shoving match. Will the local and central level deputies be able to find common ground in the future, and what can Kyiv residents expect from the work of these commissions? What urgent issues can they address and will they address them at all? When asking these questions to Dmytro Bilotserkovets, we also asked him whether the capital was preparing for a possible Russian offensive.
"CITIES COULD ALSO HOLD TENDERS TO PURCHASE GOODS AND TRANSFER THEM TO THE MILITARY. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS PROHIBITED BY THE BUDGET CODE."
- Recently, Defence Minister Rustiem Umerov told Reuters in an interview that Russia plans to deploy another 300,000 troops near the border with Ukraine and open a new front in the north. For his part, Kyiv Mayor Vitalii Klytschko has been speaking publicly about the possibility of a second offensive on the capital. Of course, we don't know for sure whether the Russians will attack again, but the overall situation is worrying. Do you discuss preparations for a possible offensive at the level of the Kyiv City Council and what is being done to ensure that it does not come as a surprise to us all?
- If the Russians can, they will definitely do it. And the mayor says that we must be as mobilized as possible. We all remember how difficult it was in February 2022.
I want to remind you that back then, you could see everything very clearly in terms of the population structure. Before the start of active hostilities, 3.9 million people spent the night in Kyiv - we looked at this from the data of mobile operators on the number of mobile phones. In March, the average number of people at night was 1.3 million, and the lowest number was about 700,000.
In addition, it should be noted that before the offensive began, there were about 5 million people in Kyiv during the day. These are people who not only live here but also travel here from the Kyiv region to work or on business, and those who pass through Kyiv in transit.
Today, we see that there are about 3.7 million people in Kyiv at night. That is, we have almost returned to the number we had before the start of the full-scale war. But at the same time, we understand that we are missing 700,000 Kyiv residents.
- How did you calculate this figure?
- Among the 3.7 million people who are sleeping in Kyiv today, almost 500,000 are temporarily displaced. This is according to unofficial data, as not all of them are registered.
Taking this into account, as well as the fact that there were 3.9 million people, we have a figure of 700,000 Kyiv residents who left. Why am I saying this? The structure of the population is changing. The needs are also changing.
Then, in February-March 2022, Kyiv withstood thanks to the military, who fought and kept the Russians away. But we also have to remember that when 1.3 million people were left here in March, most of them were men. And they were all, in my opinion, ready to fight. I myself was in Kyiv throughout February and March, and every day I saw hundreds of people who understood that there could be street fighting in Kyiv and were preparing for it, going to train, grouping up and creating voluntary territorial community formations. We had more than 50 VTCFs in the city at the time. All this shows that people were ready to fight for Kyiv.
I think that the Russians also understood that in order to enter Kyiv, they would have to send a lot of troops, given the number of people here who were ready to fight. They did not have such forces.
As for the potential future danger, we rely on the country's military leadership. Because the military must create problems for the Russians in the first place. And the public sector should help them to prepare all the fortifications and build defenses so that they are effective. That is why the mayor has a constant dialogue with all military units registered in Kyiv regarding their needs.
I would like to remind you that last year, about eight billion hryvnias were allocated from the Kyiv city budget for the needs of the military. The structure of these funds includes not only a subvention for military units but also financing of benefits for the military. This includes providing them with housing, as this is an important motivational factor.
For our part, we are constantly taking the initiative to communicate with the military and allocate subventions. Unfortunately, this year we will not be able to allocate as much money as last year, because military personal income tax has been taken away from the capital. And this is about seven billion.
Of course, we understand that there is a hole in the state budget. However, the main problem is that last year and this year we have been addressing the most urgent problems of military units, i.e. what they need most. After the military personal income tax was taken away from us, we did not see how else these needs would be addressed. All military units in Kyiv, when they come and ask for additional subventions, say that they cannot be provided for in any other way. And a logical question arises: did the Cabinet of Ministers think about who would cover the urgent needs of military units when the military personal income tax was taken away from city budgets? Apparently, it did not.
- Why should the military ask the mayors for anything at all? They are not responsible for providing the army.
- We understand that this is primarily the task of the state. But we also understand that local authorities cannot stand aside. For me, for example, this war is a national liberation war. Because my hometown of Sevastopol, where I was born and lived for 28 years, was occupied by Russians 10 years ago.
As for meeting the urgent needs of the military, today, unfortunately, I do not see normal communication on these issues with local authorities on the part of the central government. As well as on a number of other issues that need to be addressed.
- What exactly is it about?
- Now we transfer a subvention to military units in the form of money, and they make purchases. However, it is difficult for military units to put out a tender. Sometimes cities could also put out tenders, purchase goods and transfer them to the military. Unfortunately, this is prohibited by the Budget Code.
It is also prohibited to help units registered in other cities. Although some brigades or military units have battalions or units with a majority of Kyiv residents, we cannot provide them with a subvention, as this is prohibited by the Budget Code. We can only provide subventions to military units registered in the capital.
And one more important thing that relates directly to the preparation of the capital's defence. We have already sent several appeals to the Verkhovna Rada, the Ministry of Infrastructure, and the Cabinet of Ministers regarding mobile shelters, which are very necessary for cities.
The problem is that the State Construction Standard (SCS) norms do not allow the official construction and commissioning of mobile shelters. If we put up any mobile shelter in the capital, it will be unofficial and illegal. When people are hiding there, but there is a direct hit and they get hurt, someone will be responsible.
Why hasn't this issue been resolved at the level of the Cabinet of Ministers and the relevant ministry? It's very easy to make changes to the SCS, you don't even need the parliament. But, unfortunately, such appeals are ignored.
When we see mobile shelters in Dnipro or Kharkiv today, we have to understand that this is illegal. But this is not normal. We need to put the shelters into operation and to do this, we need to change the relevant regulations. This is an example of the interaction between local and central authorities. It's a pity, but the central government does not hear local authorities because of some political colours.
- You said that we cannot buy anything for the military directly. But when Censor.NET Editor-in-Chief Yurii Butusov publicly appealed to mayors to help with drones and other necessary items for the units defending the Kharkiv region, Klytschko was among those who wrote in the comments under this Facebook post what exactly Kyiv was ready to donate. Have you read this post? Can you explain how all this was procured?
- This was done with extra-budgetary funds. These are funds from donors, patrons (foreign and local) who simply help the capital. We appealed to businesses, patrons, and foreign partners to give us the opportunity to purchase the appropriate equipment for Kharkiv.
And at the legislative level, sad to say, we cannot make a procurement and transfer it to Kharkiv at the expense of the city. Unfortunately, due to the inability of the central government to help local governments, we have to look for other ways to do this. Why do they hinder us? Perhaps because they are afraid that local authorities will help the army and cities that have problems too much. But I think this is, excuse me, nonsense. This should not happen, we all have to work together for our victory. If cities want to help, the central government should not restrict them. I can give you many examples when the Servant of the People faction blocked the allocation of funds from the Kyiv city budget in the form of subventions to Irpin, Bucha, and Chernihiv. They never vote for it. They officially say during the sessions that it is impossible to do this. And the chairman of the budget commission from the Servant of the People party blocks these issues as much as he can.
Now the town of Burshtyn has applied to Kyiv for a small subvention of several million hryvnias. This town is actually dying today. We all understand what kept Burshtyn alive. In fact, it was thanks to the thermal power plant. When the TPP is not working, they need money to get something working in the city. And Kyiv is ready to help. But the central government is blocking it.
- It is good that we are ready to help. But Kyiv also has a lot of problems. Maybe they should be solved? For example, to repair the shelters that already exist.
- If the cities of the Kyiv region, which are actually satellites of Kyiv, die, the capital will lose much more money than it allocates. This is an element of the strategic development of this region. And if we look at textbooks on economics and development, we will see that any metropolis develops better when other cities nearby are doing well. If the towns near Kyiv are dying, the city budget will spend more money to help people who will move to the capital from there.
- What about the shelters that have not yet been repaired in Kyiv?
- Because it is beneficial to the central government. For them, this is a political issue. Let me explain. At present, district state administrations are the customers for repairs of any shelters in residential buildings. Their heads are solely appointed and dismissed by the president. This is the presidential vertical of power. We can allocate funds to the DSAs (District State Administration) from the city budget, but we have no influence on how they carry out repairs. On 1 February 2022, the Cabinet of Ministers deprived city authorities of the right to dismiss and appoint heads of state district administrations.
Local self-government cannot influence the heads of state district administrations. They report directly to the president. Hence, the procurement of vegetable cutters and drums was made by district state administrations without the participation of the Kyiv City Council.
We believe that it is very important that local government and the community of the capital have influence over district state administrations. To do this, we need to be able to dismiss the heads of district state administrations who are not working well, who do not allocate funds allocated by the Kyiv City Council for the repair of shelters. We are constantly talking about this at the level of the Kyiv City Council. We constantly make relevant appeals to the Cabinet of Ministers, the Verkhovna Rada, and the President's Office. We want Kyiv to be given back the powers it had before. We want to return to local self-government the districts over which the capital's authorities and local self-government have no influence.
I understand that it is very difficult to explain this to Kyiv residents. They believe that local authorities are responsible for any problems in the capital. And this is logical. But for us to be able to influence and work more effectively, we need to return local government at the district level to the Kyiv City Council. To do this, the Kyiv City Council needs to be given the appropriate powers.
In 2022, before the Russian offensive, the Kyiv City Council was trying to decide how to organize the work of local government in the capital. We said that we should take the powers of district state administrations away from the central government, and we should think about the powers of future district councils. This discussion was very active before the start of the full-scale war, and it ended as soon as it began.
We have prepared the relevant decisions, in particular, that we are actually eliminating the powers of district state administrations and transferring them to the city council. This is to prepare the ground for the creation of future district councils and the transfer of these powers to the district level. Where the community will be able to have a real impact.
- There was plenty of time to repair the shelter before February 2022, as long as we had all the necessary powers to do so. Why didn't you do it? You weren't preparing for barbecues?
- We were not preparing for barbecues. Moreover, I would like to remind you that in late November and early December 2021, the first person to raise the issue of the need to create a territorial defense was Mayor Vitalii Klytschko. At that time, we said that we needed to allocate funds for this accordingly. And what did we hear in response? You can look it up on the Internet. Mr. Reznikov started criticizing the mayor. So did the Cabinet of Ministers and the President's Office. We were told that we shouldn't interfere in matters that were not ours. And just three months later, everyone realized that we were right.
At that time, we organized the first exercises of Kyiv's territorial defense to prepare for a potential invasion by the Russian Federation. They were held, among other things, with the participation of local government representatives. We had a lot of people going to the training grounds in December, January, and early February to learn how to fight.
- But you did not answer the question of why you did not prepare shelters when you had influence over the DSA.
- This is a strategic issue at the national level. I mean in terms of national security. In general, the issue of shelters in the country is a matter of national security. I am sure that a concept should have been adopted on what kind of shelters should be built. Not only was the concept not given to local governments, but we were publicly ridiculed by representatives of the central government for our initiatives to prepare for war. They laughed at us.
It was also necessary to address the issue of repairing shelters that are not on the balance sheet of local councils.
For example, if I'm not mistaken, the State Property Fund currently owns about 300 facilities that could be shelters. They are on the balance sheet of the fund, we bear no relation to them. Therefore, when the fund said they were ready to hand them over to us, we made an inventory of these shelters. They were in a terrible state, and we demanded that the foundation start investing at least some money in their repairs. They said they would not do this.
However, we are already taking some of these shelters on our balance sheet, investing in them and putting them in order. I believe that issues such as shelters should be regulated at the level of legislation and relevant orders of the Cabinet of Ministers. That is, central authorities should develop appropriate standards by 2022. For example, it should be clearly defined what exactly should be in the shelter, in addition to ventilation and chairs. For example, there should be a generator in case of a power outage.
I am convinced that in order for Ukraine to be better prepared for a full-scale war, the state should, first of all, take the appropriate step to centralize this process and empower cities to do it properly. But unfortunately, we were told about barbecues in May. And these theses had a great impact on the psychological state of officials and ordinary citizens. When you are told every day that there will be no war and everything will be fine, you start to believe it.
- When preparing for a possible repeat offensive, anyone can now take into account the difficulties they faced in February 2022 and be better prepared. Do the city authorities take into account what happened two years ago?
- From the point of view of the services that ensure the life of the city, we are better prepared, all the algorithms are worked out. I think that even then, the capital was quite well prepared in terms of responding very quickly to the needs of the military. For example, they asked for cranes, excavators, dump trucks, and we found them and delivered them. Or, for example, they needed the city to put up blocks at the entrances to the capital, and we did that quickly too.
We are grateful to the people of Kyiv and businesses - everyone got involved and helped.
- You keep saying that the local authorities in Kyiv do not have adequate communication with the central government...
- I would add that this is due to the reluctance of the central government to engage in this communication. We are ready to have a dialogue. Unfortunately, the only dialogue that the central government agrees to is temporary special commissions or criminal cases.
- But it seems that this allows us to shift responsibility for most problems to the central government to some extent. They say that we would like to do something good, but we are not allowed to. Don't you have this feeling?
- I understand why you are asking this question. Because there could theoretically be such a split in society, as you said. But put yourself in our shoes. When you ask for powers to influence the quality of processes and take responsibility, you are not given them, and then you are made responsible for some other mistakes of another vertical of power. What should you do? For a very long time, we did not want to include the political issue in the discussion. We did not do this for most of 2022. But then they started to illegally wiretap us, organize illegal surveillance, and spend millions of hryvnias of public funds on it. Who was doing this? Was it the security forces, who were not even in Kyiv in March 2022, who went to Lviv or Zakarpattia?
We want to do everything as transparently as possible, but they use it differently. They use it in such a way as to cut something out of context, to show it exactly the way they want. In other words, to use these materials in their political struggle. Well, it just so happens that for some reason Mr. Zelenskyy does not like Vitalii Klytschko. I don't know why. I don't understand why Mr. Yermak doesn't like Klytschko either. But, excuse me, this is not their business, but the business of Kyiv residents who elected local government. And Zelenskyy or Yermak should not like the mayor. He should be liked first and foremost by Ukrainians and Kyiv residents. He should think about them, not about the political interests of the president's team or Yermak's team.
- Before Volodymyr Zelenskyy's presidency, did you know Andrii Yermak?
- I saw him several times in 2014. After the annexation of Crimea and Sevastopol, I finally moved to Kyiv, started working as the director of the KCSA's landscaping department and was in charge of demolishing street furniture. And Mr. Yermak was the head of the NGO Association of Small Businesses and Street Furniture.
At that time, we did everything to ensure that businesses had the right to participate in any tenders, because there was no ProZorro at that time, to develop fair rules for the citizens, to remove as many structures as possible that hindered people at the exits of metro stations, bus stops, and on the streets. He didn't think it was right that we were demolishing so much street furniture, so he met with me several times and discussed this issue.
After we met with him twice and he realized that everything would be dismantled, he left the association.
We met again by chance on the street before Volodymyr Zelenskyy's inauguration, when I was a member of the 8th Parliament. He looked at me very carefully, nodded his head, but did not come over to talk.
- So he remembered that you met, did he?
- I think he remembers everything well because at that time we dismantled much street furniture related to this association because new rules for the placement of temporary structures were adopted. By the way, we are still trying to change this situation today. We believe that everything should go through Prozorro.
Let me give you a small example. When there was no Prozorro, in 2015, we looked at only one area of trade - portable. And we saw how portable trade places were distributed at that time. An order was made that included more than a hundred locations. It immediately stated that there would be an individual entrepreneur in Khreshchatyk and an individual entrepreneur on the outskirts of the city. But they all paid the same thousand hryvnias a year.
When we saw everyone running and saying: "I want to be in this order," we realized that this was potentially a major corruption risk. And then the mayor demanded that the relevant departments and members of the Kyiv City Council organize tenders for portable trade. Since ProZorro appeared at the end of 2016, we held the first tenders in real life. There was a listing agent who conducted the tenders. But we saw that the participants began to collude with each other. It was like this: don't bother me there, I'll buy it at the starting price. Then we switched to electronic tenders. But even then, we saw that somehow the owners of street furniture interfered with the system. For example, you want to vote for an increase in the rate, but the button has gone somewhere. We canceled such auctions until we managed to set up the process in such a way that there was no interference.
Do you know how much the first lots were sold for? A 4 sq m lot at Arsenalna metro station was sold for UAH 800 thousand. It was a fast food food stand. The neighboring street furniture paid 20 thousand per year. And this one paid 800 thousand a year. Do you understand the difference? That's why we also wanted to move into the sphere of exchange trading with regard to street furniture. Especially since Prozoro had already appeared. Back then, many factions blocked it through the city council. It was difficult. But today we have already registered the relevant decision, and on 13 June, I am sure we will vote on this decision. And the situation will be changed (at the time of the interview, the decision was made by the Kyiv City Council - author).
I would add that street furniture before 2014 was not small business at all. In reality, the share of small businesses in street furniture, where the entrepreneur both owned the building and worked there, was only 10%. The other 90% were owned mainly by the members of the Party of Regions, prosecutors, judges, police, representatives of the authorities of Chernovetskyi and Popov, who distributed quotas so that they could set up this street furniture and litter the city. And then they leased them out to small businesses. So when they say to me: "You are dismantling them, but small businesses are suffering," I answer that small businesses are just tenants.
- Did Yermak represent the tenants or the owners at the meetings with you?
- Owners of buildings. According to my information, when Popov came to power in Kyiv, he was the head of the association. And he was working with them on how the rules for the placement of temporary structures in the capital would be organized.
"SEARCHES ARE USED AS A POLITICAL TOOL IN UKRAINE"
- For several months now, the Temporary Special Commission of the Verkhovna Rada has been working to investigate the effectiveness of the Kyiv authorities during the period of martial law. According to its chairman, Vitalii Bezhin, it is to study the problems and propose ready-made solutions.
One of your posts on Facebook said that you were not allowed to attend the commission's meeting and that you and Mr. Bezhin had a conflict. Can you explain why you were not allowed to attend? And how do you currently assess the work of the commission?
- When the tension between the local government of the capital and the central government and the Presidential Office deepens, either a new criminal case is immediately opened or political bodies are created to engage in political games and political "slashy". Mr. Bezhin was given a command from the Presidential Office. I even know who coordinates it. Because the 'servants of the people' are talking about it unofficially. It is controlled by Oleksii Kuleba, who receives commands from the head of the Presidential Office.
In order to remove the political component as much as possible, the Kyiv City Council created its own temporary control commission on the interaction of local authorities with the central government. The Kyiv City Council entrusted me to head this commission. In order to have a professional discussion, I proposed to hold joint meetings of the two commissions in the session hall of the Kyiv City Council. Moreover, together with the Public Council of the Kyiv City Council. In order to involve the most unbiased representatives of the community who have authority in the discussion. Unfortunately, the response was negative. But even so, we wrote the relevant letters from the Kyiv City Council signed by Secretary Bondarenko. Because I appealed to him as the chairman of the commission to be delegated to participate in the PIC (Provisional Investigatory Commission) meetings. Mr. Bezhin responded to these letters, saying that he did not want to see me at the meetings, but indicated that the Secretary of the Kyiv City Council or his deputies could come there.
I did not attend the first organizational meeting of the PIC when I was refused. However, I saw Mr. Bezhin comment to the mayor when he was there and asked him a question about the fact that he had invited only the heads of the budget and transport commissions to the meeting. The latter refused to come. There is also a record of this.
And it so happened that the head of the budget commission is the head of the Servant of the People faction.
What is the injustice, based on Mr. Bezhin's own claims?
Unfortunately, at the meeting of this commission, there was another deputy from the Kyiv City Council from the Servant of the People faction, who is neither the chairman of the transport commission nor the chairman of the budget commission. And he has no other status than the fact that he is also a member of the Servant of the People faction. This is Mr. Mykola Konopelko. And Mr. Vitrenko even posted a photo of him on his Facebook page. That is, "friends" are allowed to come, but I, as a representative of another political force, which is now the opposition, was not allowed.
Since Mr. Bezhin set the standards himself and did not meet them, we wrote him two more letters, asking him to let me attend the meeting, but he refused.
- But you came anyway?
- I wanted to ask him a simple question: why Konopelko was allowed to come, but I was not. I thought it was unfair. And when I came, instead of giving me an answer, Mr. Bezhin and a majoritarian People`s Deputy from the Servant of the People party from Rivne region started pushing me for some reason. I believe that this is abnormal and confirms that Mr. Bezhin is being given a specific political task by the President's Office. If they wanted to avoid this, they should not have made Bezhin the head of the PIC. The commission should have been headed by a representative of some other faction. There would be more trust in such a parliamentary instrument. Then, I'm sure, the members of the PIC would have agreed to come to the session hall of the Kyiv City Council and discuss all the problematic issues together. And Mr. Bezhin, as a member of such a commission, would have been able to defend his position politically. But when he is the head of such a commission and sets the rules, he has to follow them himself.
- You publicly invited him to a meeting of the commission you head. Did he not come?
- No, he didn't.
- In these few months since the creation of the PIC, do you know of any systemic steps that are being taken to actually address the issues?
- Mr. Bezhin involves people who have a bad attitude towards our team in the work of the commission. However, when the Public Council at the Kyiv City Council approached the commission with the idea that they would like to involve their representatives in this discussion, they were not allowed to attend. I also know a lot of public opinion leaders who, unfortunately, were also not involved in the work of the commission. In other words, they will involve critics of the local authorities, but not critics. This is another confirmation of the political component of the PIC's work.
- Do you want to be praised rather than criticized?
- We do not need praise. The Temporary Special Commission is a commission of the Ukrainian parliament. Parliament has the power to change legislation. That's why we say that we need to talk not only about the problems but also about the need for legislative changes to improve the situation in the area where there are problems.
Deputy mayors raise very important issues for the capital at PIC meetings. For example, Deputy Mayor Hanna Starostenko proposed a draft law on the necessary changes in the field of cultural heritage preservation. We are talking about situations where certain developers, who do not really care about the state of the city and how it will look, are massively demolishing old buildings that could theoretically be an element of cultural heritage. For example, a building is 120 years old, but it is not officially an architectural monument, for some reason, it has not been included in the register. This draft law has been prepared to protect such buildings from destruction. It gives cities the right to compulsorily buy such buildings from unscrupulous developers if there is an expert opinion that they are in poor condition. Then the owners of the buildings will understand that if they do not take care of them, they will lose them, and they will treat them differently. They will not think about how to demolish them and build something new in their place.
The second is to increase fines. The third is to improve legislative initiatives to grant the appropriate status to architectural monuments. To make it easier to do so.
This draft law is needed not only in Kyiv but also in other cities. But the PIC ignored it. Now Anna Starostenko is talking to various factions in the parliament and invites People`s Deputies to become co-authors of this document.
In addition, we are constantly raising the issue of buildings that are the face of the city. Such as Hostynnyi Dvir, which is state-owned, and the Sikorsky House, which is on the balance sheet of the Ministry of Defence. We are also very concerned about the situation with Poshtova Square. Today, Poshtova Square has been granted the status of a national monument. And there is also a ban on any actions by the Ministry of Culture. And we cannot initiate anything to resolve the issue of Poshtova Square without the Cabinet of Ministers. The Cabinet has to initiate. But so far it has not done so.
- One of the issues being investigated by the PIC is the state of the metro, as well as the facts surrounding the closure of a number of stations and the journalistic investigations that led to the dismissal of its former head, Brahinskyi. What conclusions have the Kyiv authorities drawn from what happened? Are any measures being taken to prevent a recurrence of situations where sections of the metro are brought to a critical state?
- Construction of the Demiivska metro station began in 2009 and was completed in late 2010. The work was done very quickly because it was very important for Azarov and Yanukovych to launch the Teremky metro line. The first reports that there were problems there because it was built in violation of technology were already in 2011-2012. I have seen the documents of the subway because I am a member of the relevant commission. I would like to remind you that there is a large number of water-bearing sands in that place, which is soil mixed with water, which is very actively moving. And when these metro stations were being built, two people died there precisely because of the technology violations.
I'm not an expert in the construction industry so I can tell you exactly what the violations are. But we can see from the documents that not all the relevant technologies were used due to the speed of construction, so the first cracks were recorded back in the days of Yanukovych, Azarov and Popov. I asked both metro employees and other experts who knew what should have been done when it became known about the problems that were built into the construction. They say that it was necessary to close these stations, remove part of the tunnel and replace it with a new one. The director of the Department of Transport Infrastructure, Mr. Kandybor, also stated that there is already a relevant expert examination that confirms this.
Therefore, when they saw that the tunnel was already worn out and that there could be problems for metro riders, they closed the stations and started construction work.
At present, work on the main line tunnel between Demiivska and Lybidska metro stations is ongoing to restore the tunnel's condition. I would like to note that the launch of the full-fledged operation of the "blue" line is now one of the priorities in the city's transportation sector, so the work continues around the clock.
I would like to add that, given the safety component, after the repair work is completed, it is planned to conduct test runs of trains before resuming full-fledged traffic on the blue line of the metro.
- Why couldn't it have been repaired as soon as the first cracks appeared?
- In any case, we would have had to stop trains in this direction and close the stations. You can't just fill in cracks like that, you have to replace the structures. As long as it was safe for people, no one closed anything.
- I heard that the surface at Demiivska is supposedly subsiding further. Is it true?
- I'm not ready to comment on this now, I don't know. Theoretically, what you said could be true. Kyiv is a very specific city in terms of surface. And, for example, there are very active water-bearing sands at Demiivka. But I am confident that today's technology is such that builders will be able to solve these issues. This can only affect the time it takes to repair and replace this part of the tunnel.
- I can't help but feel that the former head of the subway got off very lightly. He simply wrote a letter of resignation and the mayor let him go.
- The mayor is not an investigative body. He passed his verdict and dismissed him from the position of the director of the subway. He told the man to write a statement. Apparently, he saw enough political motivation for his dismissal in the accusations that were made.
For everything else we have to wait for the relevant investigative authorities. How long has it been since the NABU investigation began? A few months now.
You have raised this issue correctly. It is primarily a question of integrity. I believe that a culture of integrity needs to be developed both in state authorities and local self-government. The current situation does not meet the realities of today.
- Following media coverage, the NABU is investigating possible corruption by the former head of the Kyiv Metro Brahinskyi. An investigation by Bihus.Info journalists revealed that Kyiv Metro allegedly signed contracts with Brahinskyi's entourage. The prices in these contracts were much higher than their real value. What is the status of these contracts now? Are there any of them in force and will they be revised?
- This is not my area of responsibility. As far as I know, the relevant conclusions have been drawn. Including personnel ones. It is clear that no one will leave contracts in force if it turns out that there are violations. And I think the conclusions of law enforcement and inspection bodies will help us in this.
- In recent years, searches have been conducted quite frequently in various departments of the KCSA. They are conducted by different law enforcement agencies under different criminal proceedings. What are their consequences? Do you know how many officials and at what level have received suspicions and sentences?
- When political relations between local government and the Presidential Office are tense, we can immediately see it in the statistics of criminal proceedings. From 2019 to 2024, law enforcement agencies initiated 1186 criminal proceedings. The statistics by year are as follows. 2019 - 184 cases. In 2020 - 167. After the local elections in 2021, when tensions began to rise, there were already 233 cases. The following year - 224 cases. In 2023 - 309. As of the first of February this year, 34 criminal proceedings were opened.
Over the years, more than 1,000 searches have been conducted. In other words, searches are used as a political tool.
Following the investigation of all these proceedings and their consideration in court, 31 suspicions were announced and only 2 guilty verdicts were delivered.
The first verdict was passed against an employee of the Spetszhytlofond utility company, who was convicted under Article 358 of the Criminal Code (forgery). He was sentenced to a fine of UAH 33,400. The second case is Article 367 of the Criminal Code (official negligence). A specialist of the Department of Urban Development, Architecture and Land Use was sentenced and bailed out by the staff.
In other words, in five years, there have been only two verdicts in 1186 proceedings. I believe that today law enforcement agencies are used as an element of political pressure. When our relations with Bankova deteriorated, there were more criminal proceedings. When relations with the Bank improved a little, there were fewer of them. Because we have almost no independent law enforcement agencies left in our country. The President's Office has a great influence on them.
Now they won't like my interview, which they will read from you, I will find some kind of "wiretap" again, or they will come to my place with a search.
- Last year, you said that you found listening devices in your factional office in the Kyiv City State Administration and GPS trackers in your car. How did law enforcement respond to this? Do you know who installed them?
- I wrote a letter to the Security Service of Ukraine. I asked them to interview me and take away the listening and surveillance devices I found in my office and car. But almost a year has passed, and no one has interviewed me or taken anything from me.
These devices are at my home, waiting for the Security Service of Ukraine to come to me, ask me questions, and maybe then they will be able to investigate and tell me who exactly put them there and why.
- Why didn't you call the police to record what you found?
- I talked to my lawyers, and they advised me to write a statement to the SSU because this issue should primarily concern this agency.
I don't know whether this 'wiretapping' and surveillance devices were installed by some politically biased law enforcement agencies or by agents of the Russian special services. I have an active position on Crimea and Sevastopol. And perhaps this is why I am being persecuted by the Russians. I don't know.
- Commenting on the 10th anniversary of Klytschko's tenure as mayor, many reminded him that he had not built a single new metro station, despite his promises. And that many billions have already been spent, and now money is being allocated again. For example, as it is happening now with the Vynohradar metro station. There is again a tender for 14 billion for the completion.
This station, which Klytschko started talking about in 2016, became part of a large advertising campaign for a new residential area on the land of the former Pushcha-Vodytsia agricultural plant. This was used by developers when they sold apartments there. The houses have been built and the apartments are sold out. What about the metro?
- Because the general contractor for the construction of the Vynohradar metro station was unable to work, Kyiv Metro canceled the contract. That's why a new tender was held. Because the work that had been going on before the active phase of hostilities must continue. If it is stopped, then many elements of the future metro line will need to be preserved.
But we are not talking about allocating funds for construction, only that such a tender should be held and be as transparent as possible. The maximum number of companies should take part in it to make it competitive and the city get the lowest possible price.
Of course, in order to complete the subway, funds will need to be allocated, but the city budget must have the appropriate capabilities.
"FROM 2019, WE WILL SEE A CURTAILMENT OF DECENTRALIZATION"
- Klytschko is the head of the Association of Ukrainian Cities. How effective is this structure? How does the Presidential Office respond to the cooperation of mayors?
- You can see that the Opposition Platform has created its own Regional Development Council, to whose meetings the Kyiv mayor is not actively invited because they do not like the fact that he is the head of the Association of Cities. Although this is an all-Ukrainian association of local governments that is directly related to the Cabinet of Ministers. And it elects its chairman at the relevant meeting.
Why is the work of this association important? Decentralization is a very important factor in the development of the state. And in my opinion, it is also an element of national security. When cities are strong and capable in terms of their powers, they will be able to help the state and the army much more. But for this, decentralization needs to be continued. Unfortunately, since 2019, we have seen a curtailment of decentralization. First of all, the curtailment of financial decentralization. The state wants to take funds for itself from the cities in order to distribute them to the cities.
And we are saying that the element of financial decentralization is a factor in the fact that there is a formula that determines how local governments - through local taxes or the distribution of personal income tax - receive additional funds. And the President's Office, the Cabinet of Ministers and the "servants of the people" want to have an impact on this themselves. They want to control mayors. They need it. And they always control them through finance. Finance is an element of political control of local government. And the "servants of the people" do everything to ensure that they have this control. Because they don't like independent mayors. And we believe this is none of their business. Local government is a different branch of government.
- It is known that Klytschko worked closely with Atroshenko, who was a very popular mayor in Chernihiv, and supported him when he was removed from office.
- One of the reasons why he was illegally removed is that he is close to the UDAR team. Atroshenko still has a very high level of support in Chernihiv. The same cannot be said about local officials and those who appointed them. People can see everything.
- Could a similar story of suspension be repeated in Kyiv? Is there a plan of action for such a case?
- Everything is possible. We have only political instruments of influence, we have no other. We understand that the 'servants of the people' can do this at any time because they do not like local government in the capital and want to control it. But they want to do it not through the will of Kyiv residents, who would give them the appropriate powers, and through the election process, but in a "manual mode". For the 'servants of the people', control of Kyiv is very important. That is why they are fighting for it.
- Representatives of the Servant of the People faction in the Kyiv City Council walked out of the room to avoid voting for Zaluzhnyi and Kostenko to be awarded the title of Honorary Citizen of Kyiv. How can you explain such a strange demarche?
- The President's Office and the head of the Servant of the People faction in the Kyiv City Council, Vitrenko, simply had poor political gut feeling. Perhaps they thought they were demonstrating their political position by not supporting the mayor's initiative. This is nonsense. There was no question of politics in general. We did not comment on it in any way, did not submit it under "political flags". We simply put this issue to a vote because we wanted to honour the legendary people who have done so much for the capital.
- Could it have been a demonstration of attitude towards Zaluzhnyi?
- Perhaps there is a political component in relation to Mr. Zaluzhnyi. But I am not ready to comment on this in more detail. This is for other people to comment on. But the very fact that the 'servants of the people' did not support Zaluzhnyi and Kostenko suggests that they lost political perspective.
- Is a political alliance between Zaluzhnyi and Klytschko possible in the future?
- I am not ready to comment on any political alliances until the war is over. Because now it is not relevant.
After the war is over, the political situation in the country will change dramatically. People will have very high demands on the future parliament and the future president. And I sincerely wish the people who will be elected endurance and justice. It will not be easy for them, because society will demand a lot from them. Those who want to run for office should think about it.
- Recently, you wrote on your Facebook page that deputies from the UDAR team had registered a draft decision prohibiting persons paying taxes in Russia from leasing municipal land plots in Kyiv. Does this apply only to new agreements or will the old ones be revised as well?
- This is a very topical issue that has been repeatedly raised by public figures. I also believe that people who pay taxes to the budget of the Russian Federation do not have the right to allocate land in the capital. And we have to show our political position on this issue. That is why we have registered the relevant draft decision. The main requirements are as follows: any business entity or individual who will be engaged in the registration of a land plot in the capital must provide a letter of guarantee that they do not pay taxes to the budget of the aggressor country. And if it turns out in the future that they did pay them and lied, we will have grounds to cancel the relevant lease or purchase agreements for the land plots.
- In an interview with Radio Liberty, even before the full-scale phase of the war began, you stated that the Kremlin would lose this war and return Ukrainian lands. Now, despite everything, we also hope for victory and the liberation of the occupied lands, including Crimea. You are from Sevastopol, and you have always taken a pro-Ukrainian position and spoken openly about the hybrid war waged by Russia long before 2014. I remember a video of you appearing on Savik Shuster's programme with a Ukrainian flag. Are you in contact with anyone who lives in Crimea now? Do you know anything about the mood of the people?
- I also remember that broadcast. I was 20 years old, a professional athlete. And together with some fellow athletes and other pro-Ukrainian activists, we were sitting near the Lunacharsky Theatre. And when one of our activists, Serhii Kornienko, called and said: "Dima, there's a live broadcast". And we didn't know about the live broadcast, because no representatives of our team were on the air in Kyiv. But the head of the Russian Bloc party, which was active in Ukraine, Svystunov, was there. That's why pro-Russian organizations knew about the show and gathered people brought from Simferopol and local marginalised people who were paid in advance.
We couldn't attract a lot of people because the event was already going on when we found out about it. I just told my friends: "Let me show you how to break through". We went to my house, quickly took a flag and went to the square.
I went up to Mustafa Naiiem, who was working as a journalist on Savik Shuster's programmes at the time. We did not know each other. But I showed him that I had a Ukrainian flag and wanted to speak. He said he would give me the floor.
The pro-Russian fringe was against it and started a fight. Then Mustafa acted very decisively. A drunken deputy of the Leninskyi District Council from the Russian Bloc came up to him, started shouting that they would not allow me to speak, and even started to physically assault Naiiem. Mustafa pushed him away, and he fell down. And the police broke my arms and took me away because they decided that it was me who pushed him. When they realized what was going on, they let me go. I came back and performed.
After the show, my friends and I sat down on the curb in the central square of Sevastopol, and several pro-Russian fringe groups suddenly came up to me to shake my hand (smiles - author). They did not believe I would do it.
- Was it so impressive to them?
- Obviously. Russia started a hybrid war against my hometown long before the annexation. When I was 14 years old and heard Putin speak in Sevastopol for the first time, I realized that he would do everything to create a crisis and destabilize the situation. He came there after he was elected president and it was his first visit abroad. And since the Communists were in power at the time, the education department of the Sevastopol administration and the education commission of the city council, which was also headed by Communists, even brought schoolchildren to this meeting.
Back then, Putin said almost everything he does today. That was when I got my first idea of Russia as an enemy. Because he said that Ukrainians as a nation did not exist. That Sevastopol was a Russian city. He was saying all these theses on the square back then.
And in 2005, he started a real hybrid war in Sevastopol. Russian business began to buy up all non-state media resources on a massive scale. At the same time, they began to actively promote the Russian social networks Odnoklassniki and VKontakte. They did this, among other things, to create fakes. They wanted to influence the population, but they did not succeed. Because the maximum that the Russian Bloc could get in Sevastopol was 12% in the local elections.
But in addition to this propaganda work, they began to allocate several million dollars to pro-Russian NGOs. This money was allocated by the Moscow government through the House of Moscow. They built it on Nakhimov Square. They held meetings with these pro-Russian organizations there to approve their budgets.
How did we find out about this? Because of competition, NGOs leaked these cost sheets. We even saw it on their forums. For example, they write that a thousand dollars will be paid for the fact that when a NATO ship is moored in Sevastopol, guys in tricolour T-shirts will come in and take pictures.
We have seen that cost sheets for promotions were leaked on the Internet, and then these promotions were held.
Unfortunately, the Ukrainian special services did not react to this much at the time. Even in the Yushchenko era, by the way. Although there was some support back then in the sense that they simply did not interfere with us. And we were able to hold any pro-Ukrainian actions we deemed necessary. We did a lot of them. For example, on the 90th anniversary of the raising of Ukrainian flags in Sevastopol, we hung them on the Hrafska pier. Because in 1917, Admiral Sablin, realizing that the Russian Empire no longer existed, held democratic elections among the officers and non-commissioned officers of the Black Sea Fleet to decide which flags to raise. At that time, red flags, imperial flags and flags of the Ukrainian People's Republic were proposed. Almost 70 percent of the Black Sea Fleet's military voted in favour of raising the Ukrainian flag. And most of the ships raised it. Those who refused to do so went to Novorossiysk. And this is a very important event for Ukrainian society in my city.
Also, every year on Independence Day, we bought 5-10 thousand small Ukrainian flags and distributed them to people for free. We also held other events. We did all this as an element of opposition to the Russian hybrid war. And I believe that we were winning it until weapons appeared in 2014. Until 26 February 2014, the people of Sevastopol did not support the Russian aggression in the city or the Russian political component in any way. When Putin gathered a rally of many thousands on Nakhimov Square on 23 February, and the families of Russian soldiers were driven there to make it more crowded, only 100 people came to the Sevastopol City State Administration the next day. Putin realized that the local population of Crimea and Sevastopol opposed the annexation. He realized that he had lost. And then the Russian military appeared on the peninsula.
I would add that on 26 February, a rally of thousands of Euromaidan participants, including Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars, took place in Simferopol. And even Russians. By the way, in my team in Sevastopol, there were children of Russian soldiers who chose Ukraine because of democracy and freedom. They went against their relatives who worked in the Russian Black Sea Fleet, but they were with us. They also contributed to the purchase of Ukrainian flags and distributed them with us.
- You say that Putin has lost. Nevertheless, he got both the peninsula and your hometown. When we get them back, what do you think are the first three steps to be taken after de-occupation?
- I believe that steps to de-occupy Crimea should be taken today. I still have friends and acquaintances in Sevastopol, and we keep in touch. Although it is very difficult for them to communicate with me because the Russian law enforcement agencies have a lot of control over the Internet.
But I want to talk about what I hear from them. People ask questions like: "To whom will there be no claims after the occupation?". Ukraine has to send signals today, giving an answer to this question. In order for people to do de-occupation in their minds.
For example, such signals should be sent to the business in Sevastopol that had contracts with the Russian defence industry. Any company or individual that has been involved in the Russian defence industry will have problems. And people need to understand this today. A business that deals with, say, providing pensioners with medicines is another matter.
- A pharmaceutical business that pays taxes to the Russian budget? Are you serious?
- I know a lot of people in Sevastopol who are pro-Ukrainian, but they could not leave the peninsula because some of them had no money, some of them had parents who could not leave for health reasons or some other reason. Should they receive money to provide for their families? So we all have to think about how we treat such people. Are they to blame for being pro-Ukrainian and staying in Sevastopol and Crimea or not? What should we do with them? This is a difficult discussion, but I always tell people: "Put yourself in their shoes".
We have to find an answer to the question: "Should they go to the mainland of Ukraine now, or should they stay in Crimea and Sevastopol, so that at least at home in the kitchen with their friends they can promote Ukrainian views.
- What about those who came there after the occupation?
- The first thing the Kremlin started to do in 2014 was to change migration flows. In other words, based on their capabilities, they did everything they could to force people who were born in Crimea and Sevastopol, who lived there, to leave. They do not want Ukrainian memory to remain on this land. Therefore, they started organizing various programmes to settle these territories, to encourage the arrival of Russians or people of other nationalities who are citizens of the Russian Federation. In my opinion, everyone who came to Crimea after the annexation should leave. But what, for example, should be done with children who have been born there since 2014 and who have been brainwashed or are being brainwashed by Russian narratives? We need to think about this.
Another important question is how we should perceive the fake Russian passports that they have been forcibly providing to people.
The state should take a proactive stance in communicating with the population. When I say that de-occupation can start today, I mean that people can already be given signals, explained what will happen next. The discussion should start today. Crimeans and Sevastopol residents are waiting for these signals from Ukraine.
- When should the Crimean Bridge be destroyed?
- As soon as possible. Because this is an element of political propaganda. When there is no Crimean bridge, de-occupation will be much easier. Let me repeat: de-occupation can be carried out not only when our military enters Crimea, it can be carried out in the minds of the people who live there today.
Tetiana Bodnia, Censor.NET
